Project: Avenger Rim drive with BLDC motors & Class AB Amp

Re: Project: Avenger Rim drive with BLDC motors & Class AB A

Postby edw » Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:52 pm

vienna acoustics wrote:my new BLDC rim drive has the 78 rpm option


In comparing the manual for the Phoenix Engineering Eagle and the manual for the SOTA Condor, I noticed that the latter includes not only 33 and 45 RPMs as before, but also 78 RPM. That is a nice addition!
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Re: Project: Avenger Rim drive with BLDC motors & Class AB A

Postby vienna acoustics » Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:05 pm

edw wrote:
vienna acoustics wrote:my new BLDC rim drive has the 78 rpm option


In comparing the manual for the Phoenix Engineering Eagle and the manual for the SOTA Condor, I noticed that the latter includes not only 33 and 45 RPMs as before, but also 78 RPM. That is a nice addition!


Dear Edw, it is indeed a nice feature. I am considering as a very useful one, the running hours log feature too.
A friend, is flying from Cyprus this weekend with his reference pressings, to listen to the BLDC rim drive. He owns an Avenger Reference with the Hurst Rim drive and ADS, he is bringing his motor and his ADS for a side by side test.
He has done some tweaks too to reduce noise and vibrations.
!
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Re: Project: Avenger Rim drive with BLDC motors & Class AB A

Postby powermatic » Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:24 pm

529proaudio wrote:Seems like part of the reason the Phoenix Engineering system was so popular was that it was a cheap and easy mod. The SOTA motor and controller is $1000 by the time they mod it to fit the VPI housing or $1250 with their housing and doesn’t include the Roadrunner tach for feedback. Add the Roadrunner for another $350 and you are at a $1600 upgrade. Wasn’t the original Phoenix system about half that?


The ADS is $1250.00. Even if you went all in with a new motor housing, and SOTA doing all the work, you are getting a tach, and a new and better motor, neither of which the ADS provides, plus much more accurate speed control. If you have some DIY skills, or friends that do, you are in for $1075.00. Either way, the relative value for dollar spent varies from good to exceptional. Not having to sit there and listen o a cheap transformer buzzing in your new $1250.00 piece of equipment: priceless!
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Re: Project: Avenger Rim drive with BLDC motors & Class AB A

Postby vienna acoustics » Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:28 pm

powermatic wrote:
529proaudio wrote:Seems like part of the reason the Phoenix Engineering system was so popular was that it was a cheap and easy mod. The SOTA motor and controller is $1000 by the time they mod it to fit the VPI housing or $1250 with their housing and doesn’t include the Roadrunner tach for feedback. Add the Roadrunner for another $350 and you are at a $1600 upgrade. Wasn’t the original Phoenix system about half that?


The ADS is $1250.00. Even if you went all in with a new motor housing, and SOTA doing all the work, you are getting a tach, and a new and better motor, neither of which the ADS provides, plus much more accurate speed control. If you have some DIY skills, or friends that do, you are in for $1075.00. Either way, the relative value for dollar spent varies from good to exceptional. Not having to sit there and listen o a cheap transformer buzzing in your new $1250.00 piece of equipment: priceless!


Powermatic, besides the reduced noise and vibration which is translated to blacker blacks, more detail retrieval, better dynamics and separation thus an overall sound improvement, I believe that the most important improvement is the dramatic achievement of a more accurate speed and stability. This is resulting in correct timing. Correct timing is an attribute which can only be appreciated the moment that will be experienced for the first time.
The inaccurate and unstable speed means timing errors, the higher the speed and stability variation, the higher the timing errors will be.
It’s strange how we do care about the jitter, measured in picoseconds (deviation of time between the digital and analog samples ), in the digital music reproduction, the moment that the majority doesn’t care for the wrong timing on the analogue reproduction.
!
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Re: Project: Avenger Rim drive with BLDC motors & Class AB A

Postby vienna acoustics » Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:57 am

I had the chance yesterday, to exchange some emails with the person who was the first to experience the three phase frequency controlled BLDC motor on his SOTA Millennia turntable and had brought together Bill and SOTA.

Among others he wrote me (... I will also say that I’m exceedingly happy with my SOTA Millennia Vacuum turntable with the tachometer controlled three-phase motor from Phoenix Engineering. It made a substantial improvement in sound quality that was somewhat unexpected.... However, in addition to achieving stable speed, the noise floor improved along with better clarity and transparency..... Today, I wouldn’t trade my SOTA Millennia for any other turntable I know of. I think it’s competitive with the very best regardless of price.. )

It seems that we are sharing the same positive experience
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Re: Project: Avenger Rim drive with BLDC motors & Class AB A

Postby Waxxy » Sat Jun 13, 2020 11:53 am

vienna acoustics wrote:Powermatic, besides the reduced noise and vibration which is translated to blacker blacks, more detail retrieval, better dynamics and separation thus an overall sound improvement, I believe that the most important improvement is the dramatic achievement of a more accurate speed and stability. This is resulting in correct timing. Correct timing is an attribute which can only be appreciated the moment that will be experienced for the first time.
The inaccurate and unstable speed means timing errors, the higher the speed and stability variation, the higher the timing errors will be.
It’s strange how we do care about the jitter, measured in picoseconds (deviation of time between the digital and analog samples ), in the digital music reproduction, the moment that the majority doesn’t care for the wrong timing on the analogue reproduction.


The platter on your turntable may be spinning more accurately but the records that contain actual music will still have HUGE speed deviations due to off centre pressings and warpage. Unless of course all your records are perfect . ;)
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Re: Project: Avenger Rim drive with BLDC motors & Class AB A

Postby vienna acoustics » Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:03 pm

!!!!!!!
Last edited by vienna acoustics on Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
!
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Re: Project: Avenger Rim drive with BLDC motors & Class AB A

Postby Guss2 » Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:05 pm

Waxxy wrote:
vienna acoustics wrote:Powermatic, besides the reduced noise and vibration which is translated to blacker blacks, more detail retrieval, better dynamics and separation thus an overall sound improvement, I believe that the most important improvement is the dramatic achievement of a more accurate speed and stability. This is resulting in correct timing. Correct timing is an attribute which can only be appreciated the moment that will be experienced for the first time.
The inaccurate and unstable speed means timing errors, the higher the speed and stability variation, the higher the timing errors will be.
It’s strange how we do care about the jitter, measured in picoseconds (deviation of time between the digital and analog samples ), in the digital music reproduction, the moment that the majority doesn’t care for the wrong timing on the analogue reproduction.


The platter on your turntable may be spinning more accurately but the records that contain actual music will still have HUGE speed deviations due to off centre pressings and warpage. Unless of course all your records are perfect . ;)

Nailed it!
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Re: Project: Avenger Rim drive with BLDC motors & Class AB A

Postby vienna acoustics » Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:09 pm

Guss2 wrote:
Waxxy wrote:
vienna acoustics wrote:Powermatic, besides the reduced noise and vibration which is translated to blacker blacks, more detail retrieval, better dynamics and separation thus an overall sound improvement, I believe that the most important improvement is the dramatic achievement of a more accurate speed and stability. This is resulting in correct timing. Correct timing is an attribute which can only be appreciated the moment that will be experienced for the first time.
The inaccurate and unstable speed means timing errors, the higher the speed and stability variation, the higher the timing errors will be.
It’s strange how we do care about the jitter, measured in picoseconds (deviation of time between the digital and analog samples ), in the digital music reproduction, the moment that the majority doesn’t care for the wrong timing on the analogue reproduction.


The platter on your turntable may be spinning more accurately but the records that contain actual music will still have HUGE speed deviations due to off centre pressings and warpage. Unless of course all your records are perfect . ;)

Nailed it!


Imagine then how much worse will be the sound with a turntable with low quality motor, poor quality belts, unstable motor speed, wrong timing, buzzing power supplies , increased noise and vibrations ;)
!
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Re: Project: Avenger Rim drive with BLDC motors & Class AB A

Postby Mr_Putty » Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:57 pm

VA is correct. It’s a bit opposite of having a conversation in a quiet restaurant only to have that quality continue to decrease as more and more customers and noise fill up the restaurant. Every system has a relative reference quality level (your record). Now by my example, begin a conversation in a crowded noisy restaurant and notice how the clarity of the conversation and ambiance improves as the number of people leave. Simple as that, unless you like listening to noise. :roll:
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