Anti skating confusion!

Re: Anti skating confusion!

Postby Votan » Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:39 am

MOON,
I'm really glad I could help. Thanks.
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Re: Anti skating confusion!

Postby Golear » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:06 pm

Votan wrote:
Golear wrote:Votan, I've got no more time for you. Bye.

Thanks God!!!


May be I have a little time. :-)

A correlation is not the same as a direct connection. So yes, if you lower a stylus to a smooth part of an LP, it's the tip that's touching the LP, not the sides. And when a stylus is playing music, it is the sides that are touching the groove. So they're not the same thing. Everyone knows that. With Peter Lederman believes there's a correlation between the tip of the stylus moving against the inner part of the LP and desired anti-skate. It's not my method. It's Peter Lederman's method. If you have a problem with it, please discuss with Peter Lederman. (And let us know.)

And anti-skate, like the optimum VTF, would vary from LP to LP, and even between the quiet passages and the loud intense passages on the same LP. So.... it's not something to obsess about. It's an average setting. And you can even change it - like when you're about to play Reference Recordings' Symphonie Fantastique.

I do care about my own LPs, and I can hear mistracking distortion that is caused by incorrect anti-skate. (I've described how I listen for it.). So I will adjust things to the point where that's minimized. But I'm talking about my LPs. Not your LPs. You can do whatever you want with your LPs. I doubt if anyone cares what other people do with their own LPs.

We have people (like Stringreen) who are experimenting with no anti-skate. HW believes in the twisted wire approach. I have followed Peter Lederman's method. You're following the deflecting cantilever method. Anyone taking a different approach? We want to know as much as we can, from as many different people as possible, conduct our own experiments and make up our own minds.

Isn't that what you want, too? Or do you consider yourself to be the sole authority?
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Re: Anti skating confusion!

Postby Votan » Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:49 pm

Golear, finally “We together do not, and apart we can not”!
I honestly have nothing to break up with you, although in many of yours I fundamentally disagree. But I insist passionately on this subject, because it is not simply that there is no theoretical or practical correlation of the SS method with the actual mechanical behavior of the cantilever of a cartridge, but from the fear of very premature wear of our needle, of the suspension of our cart, of our records and in the end, of our mental health.
As I have mentioned in some earlier post of mine, some friends of our audiophile club in my hometown ask me from time to time to set up their TT-tonearms (Linn LP12/Linn Ekos II-9”/Koetsu Rosewood Signature, Garrard 301/SME 312S-12”/Lyra Delos, TW Raven/ Triplanar VII-9”/Clearaudio Goldfinger Statement, Gyrodeck/SME V-9”/Lyra Delos, Clearaudio/Morch UP-4-9”/Clearaudio something, Nottingham Analog/Rega RB 900/ Lyra Delos, etc).
Comparing the SS method to the “by Eye: and “by Ear” a/s fine tuning techniques, in all the above particular set ups, our own findings and conclusions (mine and of the club’s present members in each set up session) are unanimously as follows:
We continuously found the “SOUNDSMITH” suggested Method NOT AT ALL VALID!
First of all, why all this frustrating placing the stylus on the un-pressed flat space of the run-out groove where you should have only one second until stylus collides with the run-out groove? Why not, all this to better take place on a run-out territory of a blank (grooveless) record that most of audiophiles have in their possession.
But the main problem of this method is that in all our set ups, if you set a/s in order stylus track at the end of a grooveless LP slowly inwards, then the a/s setting demanded almost two to three times higher setting than when we set a/s knob (to the TTs that features a user-adjustable pre-calibrated knob) at the same value as VTF (e.g. for VTF=1,9g the a/s should be at 3,5 up to 4,5 in the a/s knob) that puts an extreme pressure in the outer wall of the groove-right channel!. That was something that continuously proved obviously ridiculously wrong setting, both “By Ear” and “By Eye” with sonics totally unbalanced.
And explains (but does not excuse) the unusual (and unacceptably dangerous) phenomenon of some who use this technique, to load with a pile of metal washers or blocks the lower pole of their a/s device of VPI!
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Re: Anti skating confusion!

Postby Golear » Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:30 pm

Here's a suggestion, Votan

When someone posts something in a discussion thread, that goes against something you believe in:
- if you haven't yet contributed in the thread, then respond to it - one time. Put it all down in one post;
- if you have already contributed in the thread, and have no new info, then do not respond.
- if there's some additional info that you'd like to add to the discussion (that was absent in your earlier post(s) then by all means provide the additional info. But just add the additional info.
- if there's a direct question, then answer that question as directly as possible. There may be some repetition, because something needs to be re-iterated, etc. But the wider context is that we're responding to a question so it's ok, but keep the repetition to a minimum. We're all smart, and know the context.
- keep to the discussion at hand. For example, when we were talking about the oil bath, you brought up my remote control VTA adjuster. It may indeed be a ridiculous idea - but it's not related to the oil bath discussion. When brought up in the context of the oil bath discussion, it smacks of Ad Hominem.

We recognize and celebrate differences of opinion. I disagree with HW's twisted wire method - but I'm not going to scream blue murder. And I've repeatedly urged people to try stuff out and pick the one that works best for them. I urge you to do the same - it'll be better for your health.

(At this point, please look back and read the first 3 words in this post.)

You may wish to correspond with Peter Lederman and find out more about his method. If there's something interesting that comes out of the discussion, you might like to share it with us. I'm just quoting (as accurately as I can) what he has put out.
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Re: Anti skating confusion!

Postby Votan » Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:58 pm

Golear,
When you don't have what to answer to key questions, like if there is any correlation of a/s adjustment to the SS suggested technique, you better keep silent instead of derail the thread with meaningless philosophies and “advises”.
Also, look you first to meet them, since, there is no thread that you do not intrude and regardless of the topic discussed, you talk about... RTH and promote the remote controlled VTA tower of yours, as you did in the recent thread for "Inverted bearing oil bath", and so many others!
Finally I am sure, it is infinitely better for both of us, but also for the forum:
• For you to stick to "Votan, I've got no more time for you. Bye" of yours
• And for me to stick in my answer "Thanks God" .
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Re: Anti skating confusion!

Postby Golear » Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:09 pm

Since you ask, Votan, I'm going to repeat what I wrote earlier. I'm relaying a point of view: Peter Lederman's. He's one of the experts in the field - he makes cartridges. Good ones. He also retips other cartridges, so he's able to see different approaches and techniques, etc. Have I summarized his viewpoints accurately? I sure hope so. If not, will someone let me know?

That's the extent of what I can do. You seem to think I'm promoting this point of view as THE ONLY WAY THIS CAN BE DONE!!! I'm not.

If I passed off Peter Lederman's approach as the "Greatest Anti-skate setup for all tonearms - by Golear" then I might have some defending to do. It would be legitimate to ask me the basis for that. (Though I'd probably respond that it's just a correlation and a correlation is not a formal proof so there's nothing to prove. You know this. So does God. I suspect that is what Peter Lederman will reply, if you contacted him.)

Neither do I take too kindly to your threats. When you write "...you better keep silent...", what exactly do you mean? Or else what? Please understand the decorum of this site.
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Re: Anti skating confusion!

Postby Stringreen » Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:05 pm

...sounds like silliness to me. yes, there is a theoretical use for a/s, but with my carstridges (Ortofon Winfield, Benz LPS) I hear no difference with or without a/s I use a very little bit of a/s just for the theoretical aspect, but tracking , imaging, etc remains excellent with or without.
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Re: Anti skating confusion!

Postby Orchids1 » Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:11 am

There’s a lot of folderol here. Even HW has said that the VPI anti-skate device loaded with a a few donuts should be used with SoundSmith’s cartridges to achieve their best sound. Obviously, HW’s opinions on the benefit of anti skate differ with other cartridges. The skate force, which on its face seems rather straightforward, is not well understood. There have been quite a few scholarly and technical papers devoted to it and to skate offset, and I don’t see much of a consensus beyond the general acknowledgement that skate is real. A number of experts have opined that, with so many different forces acting on cartridges and tonearms, skate simply gets lost in the shuffle and should be ignored. I doubt that we are likely to break new ground here and resolve the long-standing uncertainties of skate and anti skate. I’d recommend that each member use anti skate to the extent that he or she perceives it improves their system’s sound and ignore the analytics. Rich
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Re: Anti skating confusion!

Postby Votan » Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:46 pm

The way skating force is created when the needle reads the grooves of a spinning record, and the necessary anti-skating needed to undo its serious consequences is not something that has to do with black magic; it just rests on simple principles of physics and mechanics.
But it has significantly serious consequences, both in the degradation of sonic quality and in the longevity of the needle/suspension of cartridge, but also in the premature wear of records. And for this reason, it should not be overlooked, but also, nor to be treated with Wu Du.
In many forums is observed the phenomenon, even from experienced audiophiles, stating that "I hear no difference with or without A/s" and this, most of the time it is not far from the truth, but why?
Because usually with not at all, or minimum A/S (and therefore usually inadequate) we go directly to the very high value of A/S (thinking that this way we will understand the difference more easily) whenever usually in this way we are at the two ends of the same problem, instead of somewhere in the middle where lies the right choice.
It's a mistake I made as well for many years long time ago, until I sat and trained my ears and eyes, studying and experimenting for too many hours with a lot of different setups. My experiences from this training have been concentrated in viewtopic.php?f=12&t=10610&start=60.
The foremost and biggest problem caused by poor setting of A/S seems to be the next sketch.

Cantilever Deflaction due Wrong A-S..jpg
Cantilever Deflaction due Wrong A-S..jpg (21.06 KiB) Viewed 102 times

In Figure 1 of the above sketch, the skating Force (S.F.) is balanced by an equal and opposite anti-skating force (A/S.F.) so that the needle evenly presses the right and left sides of the groove and the cantilever is perfectly aligned both in the groove outside the cart, but as well its coil with the magnets internally. The best possible operation!
However, in Figure 2 of the above sketch, skating force (S.F.) is much larger than the incomplete, or not at all (by some) anti-skating force (A/S.F.) resulting in the needle pressing the inner wall of the groove as it is anchored in the groove. The result is to observe deflection of cantilever pointing towards the circumference of the record.
In this way we have two very important problems. On one hand, the usually elongated needle is no longer aligned with the groove (i.e. as if we were doing a very bad alignment of the cart using the protractor in the first place). On the other hand, it spoils the alignment of the coil with the magnets inside the cart which leads to distortion of the magnetic field and therefore to sound degradation.
Exactly the opposite happens in Figure 3 of the above sketch, where anti-skating force (A/S.F.) is much larger than the skating Force (S.F.) resulting in the needle pressing the outer wall of the groove as it is anchored in the groove. The result is to observe deflection of cantilever pointing towards the spindle of the platter.
In this way we have two same very important problems as above in Figure 2, and therefore once more, sound degradation.
But the problems do not stop there, as shown by the following sketch:

Azimuth Disorientation due Wrong A-S.jpg
Azimuth Disorientation due Wrong A-S.jpg (26.26 KiB) Viewed 102 times

Let's say that before we set A/S, we have set the needle’s azimuth very carefully, in order it is completely vertical.
In Figure 1 of the above sketch, S.F. = A/S.F., so that the needle keeps its azimuth as adjusted.
However, in images (2) and (3), namely in case of smaller, or larger A/S. force from skating force, for the same reasons as before, the needle (and cantilever) undergo torsional stresses that divert the azimuth from its correct initial setting with even more deleterious effects in the sound quality.
If all the above serious deregulation (caused by the not correct setting of A/S), do not adversely affect the sound, or are not audible, then I’m afraid that something very wrong lies between the analog front end and the listener.
Below are few images before and after a recent adjustment of a very expensive TT with very qualitative escorts, where the owner considered and insisted that his A/S was properly regulated, because of what the AnalogMagic’s program was showing him. Before the adjusting the VPI 12 "3DR gimbaled, A/S was offered only by the Lemo wire. During the setting up, the VPI A/S device was involved with 3 donuts in its lower pole. After this setting, and resetting once more the rest crucial parameters, much better distortion values were found through AM, in both the A/S and Azimuth, as well as, according to its exited owner, its sonic quality was dramatically improved.

Needs More A-S.jpg
Needs More A-S.jpg (45.43 KiB) Viewed 102 times

Wrong point of view (a bit right), non parallele Idol, but also too litle A-S.jpg
Wrong point of view (a bit right), non parallele Idol, but also too litle A-S.jpg (65.97 KiB) Viewed 102 times

Almost O.K..jpg
Almost O.K..jpg (54.44 KiB) Viewed 102 times
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Re: Anti skating confusion!

Postby Votan » Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:09 am

Concerning my previous post, I would like to add-clarify the following:
1. Before correcting the A/S in the above case study from where the photographs, the AM already was showing equilibrium in left-right channel distortions for A/S and azimuth, and even more was showing low and “acceptable” values! This would logically lead the user to stop dealing with further fine tuning of those particular parameters.
What could that have meant, having afterwards been audible and visually demonstrated that A/S required a significant correction? That the not correct A/S, forced AM to “adjust” the azimuth wrongly as well, in order to achieve "balanced" values (equilibrium) but with much higher distortion, for both of the above parameters.
But when the A/S was finally correctly set, first "by eye", and then by (the incredibly fastidious, well known to this forum) owner of the setup became a thorough fine tuning "by ear" (always necessary for the closer to the absolute balance, always dependent-but not decisive-and from the respective modulation of each piece of each record) the readings of AM showed once more equilibrium, bun now with almost zero distortion values!
2. Which proves that the AM does not always put you by its own in ballpark, as many of its users tend to assert and to be reassured!
3. The last in the series of the three photos of my previous post, with the caption "Almost O.K." still has a subtle deflection spindle-wise which means it has imperceptible slightly higher A/S than the required.
4. The "By Eye" and "By Ear" described techniques, being perfectly compatible with the physiology and mechanics of skating force and the required A/S, must be our only and indisputable calibers, with whom we will judge, accept, or reject any other methods of regulating the A/S.
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