Anti skating confusion!

Re: Anti skating confusion!

Postby Votan » Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:00 pm

tony it was Lyra. Very easy to see deflection. But it wants a technique: To use the idol of cart's faceplate in the record in order to be exactly in line. It helps much more if the cart's faceplate is a bit inclined (not totally vertikal) as all Lyras are..
But you also can use the "By ear" method which is even more accurate...
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Re: Anti skating confusion!

Postby rmcfee » Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:14 pm

Wow ! Many thanks to everyone. I had to slap my forehead hard after realizing the point about a blank surface not being in any way accurate because a stylus will contact the groove on the sides! Not the tip.
That explains why this blank surface method seems so inconsistent and weird. Thanks again.
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Re: Anti skating confusion!

Postby Golear » Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:12 pm

Peter Lederman's method requires placing the stylus in the smooth part of a conventional LP. You can go ahead and use an LP that's totally smooth, but then place the stylus in the inner portion of that LP, the part that would correspond to the lead out area of a normal LP. If you lower the arm on an outer or middle portion of a smooth LP, and the arm is likely to swing out.

Do try different ways, and let your ears be your guide. You can hear it working. Take an LP that has very high modulation in the last track - Symphonie Fantastique, for example. Disengage the anti-skate, and then play it. You're going to hear mistracking - the high frequencies will break up and there'll be distortion. And the LP will be damaged so I wouldn't use a prized, rare LP. Then engage the anti-skate and play it. The sound should be quieter, and the high frequencies won't break up. The sound will be less "LP" and closer to "Master Tape". (You might hear less "air" in the high frequencies - but in my view, that's mistracking!)

Unlike alignment, it is an average setting - if you like to listen to large orchestra, you might end up with a slightly higher setting than if you play... solo violin. It all depends on cartridge and the LPs you play. So I'm not sure you need something like Analog Magik.

PS: if you use the twisted wire, and not the mechanical anti-skate, you may want to increase the VTF slightly. By an extra... 0.1 g or so.
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Re: Anti skating confusion!

Postby Votan » Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:44 pm

Golear wrote:Peter Lederman's method requires placing the stylus in the smooth part of a conventional LP. You can go ahead and use an LP that's totally smooth, but then place the stylus in the inner portion of that LP, the part that would correspond to the lead out area of a normal LP. If you lower the arm on an outer or middle portion of a smooth LP, and the arm is likely to swing out.

Can you explain where this corelation comes from?
Also, if I remember well, you were using a heavy metal block instead of a few O-rings as a weight in the A/s device to manage your A/s according to the SS "method" and again complained that you had a distortion problem approaching the lead out grooves.
Have you ever thought that perhaps with this method you have implemented too high A/s?
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Re: Anti skating confusion!

Postby Golear » Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:38 pm

Putting the stylus in the smooth vinyl in the lead out area of an LP comes from Peter Lederman of SoundSmith, as indicated in my original post. He explained that method in a video that was posted on the SoundSmith site.

You put the stylus into the smooth vinyl in the lead out area, and then watch which way the arm moves. You have to watch closely as there's barely a second before the leadout groove catches the stylus. But it's enough time, once you practice a bit. You can use a smooth LP - it will give you more time. But you have to use the inner portion of that LP, close to where the final groove will be on an LP.

I didn't set the anti-skate so high that the arm moves slowly towards the center. I think that's what Lederman was saying in the video. The video wasn't totally clear about this, as he said this while making a gestured with his hand, at about the speed of a second hand moving in a clock/watch. For my set-up, the arm neither moves in or out before it's caught by the lead-out groove.

The metal block (soft aluminium) mass is equivalent to two O-rings and 3 brass washers. (The washers came from a hardware store.). I preferred the sound of the metal block because the washers and rings appeared to be jiggling around a bit when the music plays. With the metal block, the sound was more precise and more detailed. You can buy those items as "collars" from a local hardware store. I brought the anti skate mechanism to the store and picked the smallest collar that would fit on the arm of the anti skate mechanism. They are cylindrical and you have to put them in a vise and file them down manually, otherwise they'd be way too heavy. There was barely anything left by the time I was done. They're very soft, so it doesn't take long.

Is the anti-skate too high? I don't think so. I started with it too light then gradually increased it, noting an improvement in the sound each time. I stopped when the arm neither moved in or out. Anti-skate is an average setting, like VTF.

EDIT: I think I can see how the Peter Lederman method might get a bad reputation. If you use a smooth LP, you should not set the arm down at the start or middle. It must be on the inside. Come to think of it, with the smooth LP, once the arm starts moving, it will likely speed up. So perhaps the experts are right about not using the smooth LP, after all. But there's no problem to using a normal LP, drop the stylus in the smooth area in the lead out area, watch which way it moves, and then let the stylus get captured by the groove. No harm to stylus or LP.

As for whether there's a correlation between how the arm moves (if you follow the exact practice) and the anti-skate level, I'm ready to trust Peter Lederman, because he makes very good cartridges.
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Re: Anti skating confusion!

Postby Stringreen » Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:26 pm

Surprisingly little weight on the VPI gizmo and very close to the pivot (lessens the load). Try using no a/s at all.
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Re: Anti skating confusion!

Postby Votan » Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:12 am

Golear wrote:Putting the stylus in the smooth vinyl in the lead out area of an LP comes from Peter Lederman of SoundSmith, as indicated in my original post. He explained that method in a video that was posted on the SoundSmith site.

As for whether there's a correlation between how the arm moves (if you follow the exact practice) and the anti-skate level, I'm ready to trust Peter Lederman, because he makes very good cartridges.

Golear,
You, the great theorist who does not leave a stone that does not lift to find the well-hidden truth, with screeds of theoretical reservations and objections to everything is posted on the forum as “doubting Thomas”, who everywhere you want to put your finger into the print of the nails to be persuaded, it is possible to swallow without chewing what someone says completely unsupported in a video because simply "he makes very good cartridges". Is this for you a theoretically but as well practically grounded corelation? For such a serious and decisive matter?
So, all other reputable experts and manufacturers of cartridges (e.g. Lyra) or tonearms (e.g. Kuzma, Continuum, VPI, etc.) that are only a few of the many who strongly disagree and warning their customers to avoid this completely unsupported specific “method” of setting the anti-skating, what exactly are for you? Just petty inexperts?
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Re: Anti skating confusion!

Postby Golear » Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:02 am

Votan, I've got no more time for you. Bye.
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Re: Anti skating confusion!

Postby Votan » Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:55 am

Golear wrote:Votan, I've got no more time for you. Bye.

Thanks God!!!
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Re: Anti skating confusion!

Postby MOON » Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:06 am

I recently switched to Votan's way of setting up the anti skate and am very impressed. I will be sticking to this set up.
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