Classic 3 vs. Avenger Series Comparison

Classic 3 vs. Avenger Series Comparison

Postby supersax » Sat Apr 29, 2017 8:44 pm

Hi Harry ... I would like your thoughts:

I currently have an original Classic 3 with a Soundsmith SG-200 strain gauge cartridge. I don't see myself using/needing an additional arm at least at this time.

You stated in an append in the "Magnetic Drive Platter" thread: "It will be available for upgrades on all tables eventually but the entire platter and bearing needs to be replaced, a credit will be given. I have a feeling a Classic 3 or Signature with this setup will be very, very hard to beat at any where near the price."

If I were to add the 10.5" 3D arm and the magnetic drive to my Classic 3, how close do you think its performance would compare (possibly percentage wise) to an Avenger, an Avenger Reference or an Avenger Direct? Or maybe it might be better to ask, what sonic benefits would I gain with an Avenger Reference or an Avenger Direct over the modified Classic 3?

One more question: while I hope and pray that you have a long and healthy life, if I were to purchase an Avenger Direct Drive, since I think I read that you hand make them, if for whatever reason you were not available, will there be other people at VPI that will be able to continue your legacy and service or upgrade the table?

Thank you very much for your time and thoughts.

Dave
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Re: Classic 3 vs. Avenger Series Comparison

Postby Timobi » Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:41 am

Would have loved to read Harry's reply.

I have upgrade fever. :)
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Re: Classic 3 vs. Avenger Series Comparison

Postby Harry » Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:37 pm

While I plan to live a long happy life we have opted for Mike Bettinger learning and expanding on the direct drive turntable drive and he has taken it to new heights.

We are about to launch, for our 40th anniversary, a brand new $12k direct drive table with 12" Gimbal Fat Boy, cog-less noiseless 3 phase AC motor, dust cover, machines aluminum chassis, etc., etc., etc.

For the man who wants everything an advanced version of the Vanquish which uses the larger direct drive cog-less noiseless motor in the Avenger chassis both with linear power supplies, new motor controller (2018) start up time of 1 second, turn off time of 3 seconds and speed accuracy beyond anything ever made.

So the answer to the main question is yes, we are committed to direct drive and it will be produced long after I push up daisies!

All that being said a Classic 3/4 with HR-X pulley, ADS power supply, and three belts is pretty hard to beat. The magnetic drive gives you an advantage of absolutely no motor or belt noise entering the system as the magnetic drive filters all that out.

In the end I could live with all these systems. My first choice is VPI direct drive as it is totally noiseless, my second choice is rim drive as it has DD dynamic range, and the third is the three belts, HR-X pulley, ADS as it does everything right just a little less dynamic than the rim and a little less speed stable than the DD.

HW
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Re: Classic 3 vs. Avenger Series Comparison

Postby Dorian » Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:05 pm

Unless I missed it, I think this is the most we've heard to-date about the the 40th anniversary table Harry. Does Mat know you're spilling the beans!?!?! :lol:
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Re: Classic 3 vs. Avenger Series Comparison

Postby Orchids1 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:37 pm

As someone who is about Harry’s age, I would note that the more discrete why for Supersax to have gotten at what he wanted to know would have been to ask “Harry, are you the only person at VPI who can make a direct drive Avenger.” Nothing else needed to be said. Rich
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Re: Classic 3 vs. Avenger Series Comparison

Postby Harry » Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:18 pm

I always ask mat if it is okay to say anything and he shook his head and said "Sure".

I'm very excited about this. First the Fat Boy Gimbal has become my new favorite arm, I love the way it handles and sounds. Plus the adjustments are very precise. You can set the tracking force at 1.63 grams, drop it on the Ortofon force gauge 5 times and get the same number. Very, very low friction ABEC 9 Japanese ball bearings. Combine that with a very precise threaded counterweight and life gets very easy. I can change a cartridge fully adjusted in 10 minutes on this arm.

The Direct Drive motor is a military grade unit where we only use the stator and rotor by incorporating the drive parts into the actual table parts. We are not dropping a platter on some overseas sourced BLDC motor using there bearings, etc. We make the bearing assembly and platter and incorporate the drive into it.

More to come including 3D renderings from actual production CAD work.

HW
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Re: Classic 3 vs. Avenger Series Comparison

Postby Dorian » Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:28 pm

Harry wrote:I always ask mat if it is okay to say anything and he shook his head and said "Sure".

I'm very excited about this. First the Fat Boy Gimbal has become my new favorite arm, I love the way it handles and sounds. Plus the adjustments are very precise. You can set the tracking force at 1.63 grams, drop it on the Ortofon force gauge 5 times and get the same number. Very, very low friction ABEC 9 Japanese ball bearings. Combine that with a very precise threaded counterweight and life gets very easy. I can change a cartridge fully adjusted in 10 minutes on this arm.

The Direct Drive motor is a military grade unit where we only use the stator and rotor by incorporating the drive parts into the actual table parts. We are not dropping a platter on some overseas sourced BLDC motor using there bearings, etc. We make the bearing assembly and platter and incorporate the drive into it.

More to come including 3D renderings from actual production CAD work.

HW

Sounds fantastic! Can't wait to learn more.
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Re: Classic 3 vs. Avenger Series Comparison

Postby TCat » Sat Aug 04, 2018 1:36 am

So, magnetic drive and hrx style twin motors with idler drive are both options on a classic 4? And someday soon direct drive will be an option?
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Re: Classic 3 vs. Avenger Series Comparison

Postby Timobi » Sat Aug 04, 2018 1:03 pm

Thank you so much Harry for this response!

Here's hoping this new Direct Drive TT will be a thing of beauty as well. For those of us who are shallow people :lol: and like our gear to look as sexy as it sounds; I hope the DD will have a look similar to the Avenger or just something bad to the bone.

I can wait. My Classic 3 is good. Could it be better? Yes. But I will patiently wait :)

Thank you Harry.
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Re: Classic 3 vs. Avenger Series Comparison

Postby fischerd » Sat Aug 04, 2018 4:32 pm

Timobi wrote:Thank you so much Harry for this response!

Here's hoping this new Direct Drive TT will be a thing of beauty as well. For those of us who are shallow people :lol: and like our gear to look as sexy as it sounds; I hope the DD will have a look similar to the Avenger or just something bad to the bone.

I can wait. My Classic 3 is good. Could it be better? Yes. But I will patiently wait :)

Thank you Harry.


From the sounds of it, it sounds like the 40th anniversary DD will be more of a classic look since it come with a dust cover - like a beefed up Direct Drive HW19 or Classic table. We shall see though.
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