HR-X Upgrades order

Re: HR-X Upgrades order

Postby Harry » Fri Nov 23, 2018 11:14 am

Great discussion guys. I have listened to the new Direct Drive VS. the older Classic Direct VS. the Avenger with rim and belt drive. The differences are there, interesting to pick out, and very informative about drive system influence on sound.

If I had an HR-X I would have the ball and thrust disc changed if needed not change to another substance as that will change the sound in a way you may not enjoy. You can try it but it is a lot of work and for me it is a negative as the table becomes more detailed and less musical. It is kind of like a moving coil with a rising top sounds like it has more detail but actually does not, just exaggerations of information in the upper midrange lower treble.

Of all the changes the Fat Boy gimbal or dual pivot will be the biggest upgrade and be the easiest to do. It is mostly a drop in and can be done at home.

I personally like the sound of three belts on the HR-X as I listen more to classical and the three belts gives me the perspective I get in Carnegie Hall while the rim drive moves me up a few rows and for me is not as natural. That being said it is hard to beat the rim drive on rock and jazz.

I think we can still do rim drives on the dual motor flywheels but I will check on that next week.

HW
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Re: HR-X Upgrades order

Postby Brf » Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:56 pm

Harry wrote:Great discussion guys. I have listened to the new Direct Drive VS. the older Classic Direct VS. the Avenger with rim and belt drive. The differences are there, interesting to pick out, and very informative about drive system influence on sound.

If I had an HR-X I would have the ball and thrust disc changed if needed not change to another substance as that will change the sound in a way you may not enjoy. You can try it but it is a lot of work and for me it is a negative as the table becomes more detailed and less musical. It is kind of like a moving coil with a rising top sounds like it has more detail but actually does not, just exaggerations of information in the upper midrange lower treble
HW


HW, interesting observation and comment, however, I did not notice a change in sound when changing the bearing material but I attribute that to the fact that the magnetic drive platter does such an excellent good job of isolating the the slave platter from the main bearing assembly which in my case, makes it a moot point.
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Re: HR-X Upgrades order

Postby MMMC » Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:49 am

Harry wrote:Great discussion guys. I have listened to the new Direct Drive VS. the older Classic Direct VS. the Avenger with rim and belt drive. The differences are there, interesting to pick out, and very informative about drive system influence on sound.

If I had an HR-X I would have the ball and thrust disc changed if needed not change to another substance as that will change the sound in a way you may not enjoy. You can try it but it is a lot of work and for me it is a negative as the table becomes more detailed and less musical. It is kind of like a moving coil with a rising top sounds like it has more detail but actually does not, just exaggerations of information in the upper midrange lower treble.

Of all the changes the Fat Boy gimbal or dual pivot will be the biggest upgrade and be the easiest to do. It is mostly a drop in and can be done at home.

I personally like the sound of three belts on the HR-X as I listen more to classical and the three belts gives me the perspective I get in Carnegie Hall while the rim drive moves me up a few rows and for me is not as natural. That being said it is hard to beat the rim drive on rock and jazz.

I think we can still do rim drives on the dual motor flywheels but I will check on that next week.

HW


Harry,

Thank you very much for your insight and input, along with Brf's input, as well as all VPI owners, which are great reasons this VPI Forum is an invaluable resource. I hope one thing was not lost in my upgrade desires. I am NOT unhappy with my current end of model production HRX which includes the aluminum platter, VPI periph'. ring, HR-X weight, and 12 inch 3DR arm. It's the very best turntable I've ever owned, my fourth VPI, and it does everything very well. The fact that even more performance is possible, while using all VPI parts, is what created this push to achieve some of those possible performance gains, therefore this post in the quest for those last bits of additional performance. I can order three new HRX belts next week and implement them while waiting to hear back from you on the rim drive modification possibility. Most of my listening is jazz, but if the rim drive modification is not possible, it's simply not possible. The third belt will still be a plus and a great tweak. I'll begin saving for the gimbal Fatboy, which sparks the question, is there is a future 14 inch gimbal Fatboy on the CAD screen which "I" would definitely wait for as my tonearm upgrade. This is all written while I listen to a couple of Charles Mingus LP's with his large aggregations of musicians, with Mingus working hard on the bass to lead the driving rythms. Thank you again for this fantastic HR-X turntable, along with all of the performance parts!!!

MMMC
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Re: HR-X Upgrades order

Postby Letsmakeadeal » Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:55 am

MMMC wrote:
Harry wrote:Great discussion guys. I have listened to the new Direct Drive VS. the older Classic Direct VS. the Avenger with rim and belt drive. The differences are there, interesting to pick out, and very informative about drive system influence on sound.

If I had an HR-X I would have the ball and thrust disc changed if needed not change to another substance as that will change the sound in a way you may not enjoy. You can try it but it is a lot of work and for me it is a negative as the table becomes more detailed and less musical. It is kind of like a moving coil with a rising top sounds like it has more detail but actually does not, just exaggerations of information in the upper midrange lower treble.

Of all the changes the Fat Boy gimbal or dual pivot will be the biggest upgrade and be the easiest to do. It is mostly a drop in and can be done at home.

I personally like the sound of three belts on the HR-X as I listen more to classical and the three belts gives me the perspective I get in Carnegie Hall while the rim drive moves me up a few rows and for me is not as natural. That being said it is hard to beat the rim drive on rock and jazz.

I think we can still do rim drives on the dual motor flywheels but I will check on that next week.

HW


Harry,

Thank you very much for your insight and input, along with Brf's input, as well as all VPI owners, which are great reasons this VPI Forum is an invaluable resource. I hope one thing was not lost in my upgrade desires. I am NOT unhappy with my current end of model production HRX which includes the aluminum platter, VPI periph'. ring, HR-X weight, and 12 inch 3DR arm. It's the very best turntable I've ever owned, my fourth VPI, and it does everything very well. The fact that even more performance is possible, while using all VPI parts, is what created this push to achieve some of those possible performance gains, therefore this post in the quest for those last bits of additional performance. I can order three new HRX belts next week and implement them while waiting to hear back from you on the rim drive modification possibility. Most of my listening is jazz, but if the rim drive modification is not possible, it's simply not possible. The third belt will still be a plus and a great tweak. I'll begin saving for the gimbal Fatboy, which sparks the question, is there is a future 14 inch gimbal Fatboy on the CAD screen which "I" would definitely wait for as my tonearm upgrade. This is all written while I listen to a couple of Charles Mingus LP's with his large aggregations of musicians, with Mingus working hard on the bass to lead the driving rythms. Thank you again for this fantastic HR-X turntable, along with all of the performance parts!!!

MMMC


How would you mount a 14" armward on an HRX? Would require some custom machined parts I would think. Just curious if you have a plan for how to do this?
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Re: HR-X Upgrades order

Postby MMMC » Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:47 pm

.................................................................................

How would you mount a 14" armward on an HRX? Would require some custom machined parts I would think. Just curious if you have a plan for how to do this?[/quote]

L.M.A.D.

Harry's the engineer, not me! :oops: :lol:
To be honest, I have no plan, but I have seen external arm pods with tonearms mounted on them, so maybe it could be implemented. At this point, I also put nothing past Harry's mind. That's why I made the remark about possibly something being on his CAD monitor screen. Also, have you never purchased a consumer product, and 6 months after your purchase, their new model is released with "NEW" features or capability? I also do apologize for not framing my comment a little better.

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Re: HR-X Upgrades order

Postby Harry » Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:23 pm

When it is available the 14" or 16", not sure which, will be mountable to the HR-X, TNT, and almost all tables with a plinth large enough. Remember, it will have a straight headshell, no offset, so the mounting will be different but any of the big tables will mount it, including the new 40-DD. This will be mid 2019 so don't change your plans waiting for this, it will be a real exercise in mechanical engineering and 3D printing and will probably not be cheap.

Brf, you are right, the mag drive wipes out many noise or sound changing things in the drive system.

HW
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Re: HR-X Upgrades order

Postby MMMC » Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:57 am

Harry wrote:When it is available the 14" or 16", not sure which, will be mountable to the HR-X, TNT, and almost all tables with a plinth large enough. Remember, it will have a straight headshell, no offset, so the mounting will be different but any of the big tables will mount it, including the new 40-DD. This will be mid 2019 so don't change your plans waiting for this, it will be a real exercise in mechanical engineering and 3D printing and will probably not be cheap.

Brf, you are right, the mag drive wipes out many noise or sound changing things in the drive system.

HW


Harry,

I had read some "rumors" you were working on longer VPI arms like the 14 inch going back maybe 2 years, but this is the first time I have seen your actual comments in print, though I certainly could have missed them. It definitely brings a smile to my face, especially noting your continued policy to design and produce upgrades that work on all of your high end turntables. Proving the investment value in the HR-X platform to be worth more than the purchase price. I WILL continue to toss my "spare" dollars and coins into the HR-X savings account and upgrade fund.

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Re: HR-X Upgrades order

Postby Harry » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:04 pm

I brought a 14" prototype to the Capitol Audio Fest and discussed it there. It will be a 2019 product but it will be expensive due to the low volume production costs but probably worth the extra dollars.

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Re: HR-X Upgrades order

Postby MMMC » Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:44 am

Harry and all contributors,

I posted the following in a "Multiple belts" posting in the Support Forum but think it also should be posted here, because it truly is an upgrade of much greater impact than the small cost may lead one to believe. The post is quoted just below.

" ... would like to report very positive results from adding a "third" belt to my HR-X. A good bit more of everything, timber, depth, and immediacy from the presentation. Things I was expecting from a possible rim drive implementation. The most difficult part of this very simple upgrade addition was finding an HR-X set of belts, which I never expected to be an issue considering the number of VPI retailers in the greater San Francisco Bay area. I eventually found a set of belts at a southern California VPI retailer. That said, the result was well worth the search effort, and may be one of the least expensive performance tweaks I have ever employed on a VPI table, and this is my fourth VPI turntable.


This checks off as a definite upgrade that allows more focus on the future 14 inch Fatboy (unipivot) purchase, which based on the yet still unknown, but very high projected cost expectations, (per Harry's remarks), will only allow me a one arm HRX implementation because I will need to trade in my 12 in 3DR arm to assist making that upgrade happen. The Rim-drive unit is now also off the list of upgrades for any immediate future. As my dear Dad informed me long ago,.... "son, you definitely have more dreams than dollars!"

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MULTIPLE BELTS

Postby jpb6061 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:03 pm

Been playing a lot of vinyl lately and working on setup and tweaks for my Super Scoutmaster / JMW 9 combo. I've been alternately kicking myself and feeling virtuous for not purchasing the Rim Drive upgrade when it was available. On a whim I added a third belt last night and was amazed.

I would hesitate to go as far (publicly) as you did in extolling the change, since I'm a long-time lurker, but very occasional poster.... but wow! I had played side one of an old Badfinger album, "Straight Up", the previous evening and thought it sounded amazingly good for what it was.... Side 2 with the third belt was a revalation. Soundstaging was much improved, as was the corporeal imaging of the singer centered between the speakers. Jump, slam, dynamics, all of those things were more pronounced, but also higher definition and a sense of reality on the strummed guitar chords.

On "Lyle Lovett & His Large Band", the dynamics and clarity were outstanding, and the representation of Lyle's sort of gravelly voice really came through as did his relative youth, if you understand my meaning. Intrigued, I put on Leonard Cohen's "Popular Problems", and heard the grit and weariness in his voice as never before. The beauty and simplicity of his compositions were better portrayed than I've ever heard them.

Hope this doesn't sound too "hyperbolic" but if this be the "poor-man's" Rim Drive alternative, I love it!
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