I need you Harry-12" arms and MF

Re: I need you Harry-12" arms and MF

Postby Harry » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:22 am

A few points on these comments:

1- When measuring cartridge output the more massive the arm the greater the deflection of the cantilever on warps and the greater the distortion produced. When you flatten the record the distortion goes down to near zero, the subsonic nonsense draining your amps goes away, and the cantilever stays centered in the linear part of its motion. It is clearly measurable and was a much worse problem with Shure, ADC, Stanton, etc. cartridges with high compliance and loose cantilevers. Most of this talk is from those good old days. A Denon 103 mounted on a 14" arm has barely any deflection over warps, as the ART-1000.

2- The side to side motion caused by an off-center hole is such a low frequency any phono with a subsonic filter removes all effects and the system sounds much better. This should be standard and defeatable on all phono sections. Spindle hole location appears to have no tolerance, they are all over the place and the cost of the record is no predictor. Also, much less of a problem with compliance's in the 5 to 12 range.

3- I'm not kidding, take your cartridge, straighten it in the headshell and listen. You will be shocked.

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Re: I need you Harry-12" arms and MF

Postby seamonster » Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:30 am

I'd like to experiment with straightening my cartridge, but, I'm about at the pivot-most limit of my headshell slots, and would be unable to otherwise align the stylus.
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Re: I need you Harry-12" arms and MF

Postby Harry » Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:36 am

You do not realign it, you just rotate it straight. Do not even try to align it, it will not work. Just make it parallel to the armtube and listen. Doing this removes all skating force so disable the anti-skate if you use it.

Sit back and enjoy it.

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Re: I need you Harry-12" arms and MF

Postby seamonster » Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:40 am

Thanks, I'll give it a shot. I don't use any anti-skating, and run my cartridge at maximum recommended VTF.
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Re: I need you Harry-12" arms and MF

Postby Golear » Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:57 pm

Harry wrote:You do not realign it, you just rotate it straight. Do not even try to align it, it will not work. Just make it parallel to the armtube and listen. Doing this removes all skating force so disable the anti-skate if you use it.

Sit back and enjoy it.

HW


Is this for 12" arms, or can this be done for 10" arms, too? What about 9" arms?

If there's no offset and no aligning, can we put the 14" or 16" arm on any turntable - like my Classic 3?

PS: there's the "Luigi Pasqualini turntable", and this:
25acf685c7a1902e600689f908a748fb.png
25acf685c7a1902e600689f908a748fb.png (671.31 KiB) Viewed 235 times
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Re: I need you Harry-12" arms and MF

Postby Waxxy » Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:10 pm

Harry wrote:You do not realign it, you just rotate it straight. Do not even try to align it, it will not work. Just make it parallel to the armtube and listen. Doing this removes all skating force so disable the anti-skate if you use it.

Sit back and enjoy it.

HW


So I gave this a try. I spun a Paradox Pulse / Denon 103r so that it was in line with the armwand and twisted in the headshell. It was so twisted that I feared for my stylus and record grooves! In order to minimize the stylus misalignment with the groove, I initially dropped the needle on the last track of a disposable LP. To my surprise, even though the stylus was clearly twisted in the groove, there was no noticeable distortion and in fact, there was a nice strong central image! I then tried playing the first track of the side, where the stylus is dropping into the groove skewed at more than 30 degrees, and it still sounded fine!

I didn't risk listening for very long for fear of cantilever / stylus damage, but Harry's little experiment has proven one thing to me. I am spending WAY too much time and energy worrying about proper alignment! It hardly matters at all! Get it pretty close and that's problably good enough. Bill Firebaugh agrees! BTW, Bill has also developed a 16 inch tonearm.

Interesting experiment Harry, and it will be interesting to see your longer tonearm designs as they become available. The Avenger type tables would easily allow for this type of extended tonearm...other decks, maybe not so much.
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Re: I need you Harry-12" arms and MF

Postby Harry » Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:41 am

Good Waxxy, you did it. It will not damage anything and goes to show how we obsess over little things that are meaningless yet let the important ones pass by.

The 14" and 16" arms I will be making will work even better but the 12" still does a great job and anyone can try it just by re-positioning the cartridge perfectly straight with the arm tube. If you are lucky enough to have an Avenger you can remove the screws holding the bass of the arm to the arm board, get a "C" clamp from Home Depot and position the arm properly for the straightened cartridge. You will be bowled over.

If this comes to market from VPI (or if not and some want it contact me) it will be adaptable to all the old tables, we never leave anyone out.

I have not tried it yet on a 9" or 10.5" arm, not enough hours in the day.

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Re: I need you Harry-12" arms and MF

Postby Peer Gynt » Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:03 pm

Harry wrote:
If this comes to market from VPI (or if not and some want it contact me) it will be adaptable to all the old tables, we never leave anyone out.

I have not tried it yet on a 9" or 10.5" arm, not enough hours in the day.

HW


Does this refer to the 14” and 16” arms? Or something else I missed.

Regarding the off center spindle holes, mentioning stuff here seems like a jinx :(

B&N put some disks on 30% off this weekend. I get 10% off by being a member of their club.

So I bought several, some new titles, and some replacements. Dream of the Blue Turtles is a disk that I listen to as part of set up, so I bought a fresh copy.

Imagine my surprise to see the tonearm vibrating once per rev left to right.

Imagine my disappointment when twice on the side, the needle jumped a groove, seemingly from this lateral oscillation.

I’ve never noticed this once per rev waffling before, except on that old USO recording mentioned above. I’ve never heard this groove jumping either.

I’m going to take a Dremel tool to the hole and center it. I wonder how that will work. Anyone have experience? Is it a fool’s errand?

Sigh ....
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Re: I need you Harry-12" arms and MF

Postby Waxxy » Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:16 pm

Peer Gynt wrote:
Harry wrote:
If this comes to market from VPI (or if not and some want it contact me) it will be adaptable to all the old tables, we never leave anyone out.

I have not tried it yet on a 9" or 10.5" arm, not enough hours in the day.

HW


Does this refer to the 14” and 16” arms? Or something else I missed.

Regarding the off center spindle holes, mentioning stuff here seems like a jinx :(

B&N put some disks on 30% off this weekend. I get 10% off by being a member of their club.

So I bought several, some new titles, and some replacements. Dream of the Blue Turtles is a disk that I listen to as part of set up, so I bought a fresh copy.

Imagine my surprise to see the tonearm vibrating once per rev left to right.

Imagine my disappointment when twice on the side, the needle jumped a groove, seemingly from this lateral oscillation.

I’ve never noticed this once per rev waffling before, except on that old USO recording mentioned above. I’ve never heard this groove jumping either.

I’m going to take a Dremel tool to the hole and center it. I wonder how that will work. Anyone have experience? Is it a fool’s errand?

Sigh ....


I've never tried a Dremel but I've used a rat-tail file to expand the spindle holes on a record or two...the holes were so tight pressure was required to place and remove the record on the platter.

Before using anything to expand the hole make sure both sides are off-centre. My copy of Norah Jones - Day Breaks is terribly off centre on side A but perfectly aligned on side B. I assume one of the plates were installed off centre in the press.

I was surprised you mentioned not having many records with spindle holes that are off centre. My collection is the opposite...I have very few records where the hole is perfectly aligned...most are off centre, even if only to a small degree.
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Re: I need you Harry-12" arms and MF

Postby Harry » Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:35 pm

They used to make a kit that had you drilling the hole with a drill bit, centering the enlarged hole and then pressing this self stick very thin washer on the label. It worked and centered the side you wanted to center and then prayed the other side was the same!!

Yes, I was talking about the longer arms.

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