Record cleaning

Re: Record cleaning

Postby Peer Gynt » Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:10 am

sixstringer99 wrote:I just bought the Kirmuss system from Upscale Audio and began cleaning this last weekend. Yes, it does take some time but I heard immediate improvement on some very old records. Sorry, my records are not that old, I only started buying them in 1962. I have used several different cleaning products over the years and this cleaning system actually makes sense to me. I have a VPI Prime Signature, Kiseiki Purple Heat, McIntosh Amp and Pre=amp, Wilson Audio Sasha 2's. Old records are now almost dead quiet in the areas that I didn't wear out over the years. I believe vinyl does get damaged from repeated play over the years. About as good as it gets, everything sounds great!


No doubt the first cleaning helps nearly all records.

Are you comparing Kirmuss to your previous RCM, or is the Kirmuss the first machine cleaner these records have had?

Either way, isn’t it great to buy a component and have quick and clear results! I’m glad that the cleaning project has been rewarding.
Main System: MW-1 Cyclone, Lyra Etna, Ekos SE (long headshell), Radikal+Keel+Harban LP12, Conrad Johnson TEA1 + ET7s2 + LP275Ms, Revel F228Bes + ML BF210. Other source is Marantz SA-KI Ruby Ken Ishiwata Signature Reference SACD/CD/DAC.
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Re: Record cleaning

Postby sixstringer99 » Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:21 am

True, this is the first machine cleaning device that I have used. For some reason since I was a kid I have always tried to keep my records in pristine condition. I have the entire original Beatles collection and they "look" like they are new, except the sound is somewhat distorted because they were played so much over the years. I have used record cleaning solvents, wipes, and brushes for years. I almost bought an Audio Desk record cleaning machine at the LA audio show a few years ago but I just couldn't get my head around leaving an unknown amount of residue on the record surface. So even though the Kirmuss is a lot of work per disc, I feel like I am getting all of the junk out of the grooves and the record does sound good. I'm not sure if I buy into all of the Kirmuss hocus pocus but so far the sound has improved on my vinyl and the machine is a quarter of the price for the other fully automated machines.
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Re: Record cleaning

Postby jmcox » Fri Aug 21, 2020 5:41 pm

Has anyone else experimented with adding a small amount of alcohol to the distilled water finishing rinse to their record cleaning regimen ?
VPI Avenger/Transfiguration Proteus, Miyajima Zero, VAS Nova Gold .25, VAS .30 MONO/Ring Clamp/SDS/EAR MC4SUT/Herron VTPH-2A/Primaluna Dialogue Premium preamp/McIntosh MC40 mono blocks/Ampsandsound Cornscallas/Kimber Select all cables/Furman Reference 15i
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Re: Record cleaning

Postby theeng » Fri Aug 21, 2020 6:33 pm

@jmcox,

I do not add IPA to my final rinse step, but if you download the paper Precision Aqueous Cleaning of Vinyl Records - https://thevinylpress.com/precision-aqu ... l-records/ - read down to the red download box, there is a discussion of IPA in Section VIII - if you have already downloaded the paper disregard this post. In Section VIII you will see the effects that IPA in water has on surface tension and boiling point. If the surface tension is reduced enough (Section VIII of the paper has a discussion on 'wetting'), the rinse water will drain (vertical) from the record better; and a lower boiling point may speed-up drying. But, be careful, >2% IPA in water - the vapors are Flammable. Also, depending on how much you add, and depending on the IPA purity (you want to check the non-volatile residue (NVR) specification) you can actually contaminant the demineralized/distilled water. Also, if using a vacuum-RCM, aside from the fire hazard - a low surface tension fluid may not vacuum up as easily.

Neil
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Re: Record cleaning

Postby jmcox » Fri Aug 21, 2020 7:23 pm

Thanks so much for your reply Neil, (and in looking over this material I'm sure a lot of folks are very appreciative of the work you did with respect to the paper you wrote - very generous).

Best, James Cox
VPI Avenger/Transfiguration Proteus, Miyajima Zero, VAS Nova Gold .25, VAS .30 MONO/Ring Clamp/SDS/EAR MC4SUT/Herron VTPH-2A/Primaluna Dialogue Premium preamp/McIntosh MC40 mono blocks/Ampsandsound Cornscallas/Kimber Select all cables/Furman Reference 15i
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Re: Record cleaning

Postby Peer Gynt » Sat Aug 22, 2020 1:56 pm

I want to second the kudos to theeng (Neil) for his research on record precision cleaning, and for sharing.
Bill Stevenson shared it with me and I think it really is the definitive modern work on the subject. It is not for non-readers. It’s quite densely packed. But he has included excellent summaries of key points at the end of each section. For those with patience and a good technical background, it’s readily accessible.

Very nice indeed. Thanks!
Main System: MW-1 Cyclone, Lyra Etna, Ekos SE (long headshell), Radikal+Keel+Harban LP12, Conrad Johnson TEA1 + ET7s2 + LP275Ms, Revel F228Bes + ML BF210. Other source is Marantz SA-KI Ruby Ken Ishiwata Signature Reference SACD/CD/DAC.
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Re: Record cleaning

Postby theeng » Sat Aug 22, 2020 4:10 pm

@jmcox & Peer,

Thanks for the kudo's; it kept me busy this last winter, and also thanks to Bill Hart of The Vinyl Press for publishing the paper. From some feedback, a few items learned:

1. The Alconox was used successfully as a pre-cleaner with a vacuum RCM (not a VPI unit). Essentially the whole manual process was used as follows; I never did get a clear indication of how many DIW rotations was used and he was using separate brushes for Alconox and the Tergitol > For RCM where you may not be rinsing the brush with flowing water in between steps that may not be a bad idea.
-Pre-Clean with 1% Alconox Liquinox - 4 rotations each side (twice each direction).
-DIW Rinse - 1 rotation?
-Final Clean with 0.1% Tergitol - 4 rotations each side (twice each direction).
-DIW Rinse - 1 rotation?

2, For the manual process I need to revise to specify number of rotations/side - I use 3-5. Its a question of perception - what is the person who reads it used too. Those that have used RCMs - are used to the term rotations.

3. If you read all the comments to the article at the The Vinyl Press you will see where I was working with "Tim" in designing a precision filtration system using a 0.2 micron absolute filter - it took a bit to select the right pump (positive displacement diaphragm pump). None of the small centrifugal pumps are good with a very fine absolute filter - not enough pump head. Tim has recently commented with a parts list for the filter system.

4. I will update the document to reference what is one of the better room HEPA filters - USA made Austin Air https://austinair.com/; nothing fancy just battleship build with big filter (can last up 5 years); and they currently have a lot of business.

5. I have begun making some small format changes to improve the document use - numbering of all the references to add 'bookmarks' - will have to see how that moves over when converted to pdf. I do not have Adobe Professional so I do not have the ability to format with a left side document tree.

6. Bill Hart did indicate that he would not be adverse to posting a revision - it would be this winter; right now outside on bike a lot.

Stay well,
Neil
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Re: Record cleaning

Postby Letsmakeadeal » Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:31 pm

I had not reviewed the activity here for quite a while. Just catching up. Am I correct that everyone has pretty much stopped using alcohol in their cleaning solutions? US and standard cleaning machines as well? Seems like many are using TergiKleen. Wonder if the older Roushton(sp.?) formula is still good without the alcohol? I have Triton x100 and all the other ingredients for that recipe. Harry mentioned that he is now only using distilled water in his USC.
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Re: Record cleaning

Postby theeng » Sat Sep 19, 2020 9:50 am

Letsmakeadeal,

Aside from what I wrote in my paper, here is a recent post from Vince1 who is (was?) the resident chemist at the vinylengine - http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_fo ... 2#p1084415.

As I said in my paper, any water-IPA solutions >2% is a potential fire hazard with any electrified RCM; with the risk increasing as the concentration increases since the flash point decreases. My paper addresses somewhat what Vince1 says above regarding the extraction effects of alcohol - but his recent post is about as succinct as you can get.

I will say that Vince1 and myself differ with the 'final cleaning' step - my background is to achieve as residue a free surface as possible using as little (concentration) chemistry as possible which is why I recommend Tergitol 15-S-9 at 0.05-0.1% as the final cleaner. Vince1 recommends the use of an antistatic cationic surfactant (QUAT - Quaternary ammonium compounds) in the final cleaner to leave a microscopic layer to minimize static. It achieves this by absorbing moisture from the air so the benefit is humidity limited - tends not to work well below 35%. Also, many concentrated QUATs are (until diluted) very dangerous - and unless you are very careful - you can do yourself some real harm.

Stay well,
Neil

PS/For the record, I did not 'plagiarize' any info from the vinylengine. If you read my paper you should note that most of my concepts came from the work I did with the Navy in the early/mid 1990's long before there where any 'forums'.
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Re: Record cleaning

Postby Letsmakeadeal » Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:38 pm

Thank you Neil. Very informative...
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