Counterweight Design

Re: Counterweight Design

Postby Brf » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:28 am

VinBob wrote:
Thanks Brf and glad I asked, as the dual pivot point is something I am considering as a potential upgrade in the not too distant future...


The dual pivot is an absolute no-brainer, don't wait, it is that good!!

IMHO, the dual pivot should be standard on all new VPI tonearms sold
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Re: Counterweight Design

Postby VinBob » Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:18 am

Brf wrote:
VinBob wrote:
Thanks Brf and glad I asked, as the dual pivot point is something I am considering as a potential upgrade in the not too distant future...


The dual pivot is an absolute no-brainer, don't wait, it is that good!!

IMHO, the dual pivot should be standard on all new VPI tonearms sold


That is quite the endorsement and especially coming from you kind sir :) - Have you had a chance to try this out personally and if so, what major improvements did you notice that one can expect?

Cheers,
Vin.
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Re: Counterweight Design

Postby Brf » Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:28 am

Brf wrote:
VinBob wrote:
So if I am understanding correctly, are you suggesting that using something like the Expressimo counterweight would not be much of an upgrade for those who have added the new VPI dual pivot tweak?


Theoretically yes, horizontal stability is no longer an issue with a dual point as the tonearm is now fixed on a single plane. The brass (?) material of the Expressimo may affect the arm's damping, therefore, affecting the sound. Perhaps Waxxy will be installing a dual pivot on one of his arms and can report back.


I must add that some users (especially rega users) have reported a sonic improvement when they have upgraded their cw on fixed bearing arms.
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Re: Counterweight Design

Postby Waxxy » Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:16 pm

Brf wrote:
Waxxy wrote:
Yes the larger side weights must have a very positive effect on the performance of the newer arms. I would imagine that the Expressimo counterweight (or any one of similar design theory) would increase the performance of the 3D arm to an even greater extent as the 3D material used for the bell housing is has much less mass than the stainless steel used for the metal arms.


Actually, it would be the opposite. With less mass over/surrounding the pivot point (azimuth ring) the effects of the stainless steel weights extended beyond the pivot point have a greater affect on stability. To expand on you analogy, the effect of tight rope walker's pole provides greater stability for a lighter person than a heavier person.

It should be also be pointed out that counter weight design is less important on a uni-pivot tonearm with a dual pivot due to the fact that it creates 3 non-collinear points which now defines a plane.


I think we are actually agreeing on the effect, but it's possible I'm not describing the concept as clearly.

You write "With less mass over/surrounding the pivot point (azimuth ring) the effects of the stainless steel weights extended beyond the pivot point have a greater affect on stability" and I agree. When I wrote " I would imagine that the Expressimo counterweight (or any one of similar design theory) would increase the performance of the 3D arm to an even greater extent as the 3D material used for the bell housing is has much less mass than the stainless steel used for the metal arms" I was essentially saying the same thing as you. Whether it's the stainless side weights or the Expressimo counterweight, the stabilizing effect would be greater on the lighter 3D armwand.

Also, I'm not sure the 2nd pivot mod will work with my older style arm. If I knew it would fit, I would not hesitate to try it.
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Re: Counterweight Design

Postby Orchids1 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:10 am

Brf, When you say the dual pivot is a "no brainer", I assume that's because it produces some sort of sonic improvement, and not just that it is more stable than a unipivot. The occasional "wobble" of a unipivot arm doesn't bother me, and I can't imagine that it presents a problem for you. I think Harry may have said that the dual pivot enhances base tones for some reason. Is that what you've noticed, or is it something else, such as easier and more accurate azimuth adjustments. Rich
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Re: Counterweight Design

Postby thegage » Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:17 am

Apologies for derailing the thread further, but I found this post by HW over at Audionirvana. Not sure I've seen anything as succinct here, nor does this seem to appear in the directions that come with the kit, which is surprising:

"The second pivot goes behind the left side side weight so it approximates the vertical motion of an offset gimbal and will not rotate the stylus azimuth on record warps. You should use minimal pressure on that second pivot, just enough to keep it engaged, and you will be set. The second pivot adds stability to the soundstage, tightens up the bass by giving the stylus more effective mass to work against, and for many of my customers makes the arm usable again when they develop mild tremors. All in all a win in all directions.

BTW, you can decrease tracking force at least 5% and get the same tracking ability. I now track the Atlas at 1.6 grams, and may go lower, with no issues at all."

https://www.audionirvana.org/forum/the-audio-vault/analog-playback/tonearms/48234-vpi-3d-dual-pivot-conversion-kit?p=52700#post52700
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Re: Counterweight Design

Postby billo » Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:53 pm

I read the thread and got the half moon weight, with reservations. To good to be true? Not at all, it makes my old VPI 10 sing. : )

Bill
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Re: Counterweight Design

Postby JulianMoss » Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:46 am

billo wrote:I read the thread and got the half moon weight, with reservations. To good to be true? Not at all, it makes my old VPI 10 sing. : )

Bill


Good to hear Bill, I'm looking forward to mine arriving now.
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Re: Counterweight Design

Postby Stringreen » Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:31 pm

Waxxy....the new 3D's have a smaller end stub than they did before.....I think the EA weights just might fit fine on the new ones.
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Re: Counterweight Design

Postby Tlarwa » Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:45 pm

Advice needed ... thinking about getting one of these but I'm not sure what weight to get. I am using an Ortofon Quintet, which is 9g. The EA site says the 120g weight should be used with cartridges up to 10g, but I am using my 140g VPI weight now (came with my Classic 1) and it's fine. Should I go for the 120g or the 140g?
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