Project: Avenger Rim drive with BLDC motors & Class AB Amp

Re: New project: RIM drive with BLDC motors & Class ABamp

Postby vienna acoustics » Sat May 09, 2020 3:02 pm

Dear Tonny

It’s nice hearing from you and I hope all is well my friend.

I did the S13N4 upgrade. I had tested the new rim drive first without this modification but I was measuring some harmonics. I have replaced the SS bearing and installed the sapphire glass and the harmonics disappeared.

Bill Carlin, has filled the internal voids with lead shot which was glued to avoid unwanted movements. When received, the drive was 7.8 kilos (17.19 lbs). I added more mass with external glued lead (these are glued at the side facing the turntable and the bottom of the drive). The lead I added consists of the lead that is used to the trucks’s wheels. Brent (BRF) once gave me this idea.
!
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Re: New project: RIM drive with BLDC motors & Class ABamp

Postby theeng » Sat May 09, 2020 5:08 pm

Michael,

Impressive!. When you glued the lead plates - did you use a hardening glue or a more elastic type adhesive? Just inquiring to figure if the damping benefit is mass or mass plus viscoelastic damping. In the 1st photos the rim drive showed a white edge, with later photo showing a black edge - what drove the change in material - just curious.

Stay well and enjoy your new project,

Neil
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Re: New project: RIM drive with BLDC motors & Class ABamp

Postby vienna acoustics » Sat May 09, 2020 11:14 pm

theeng wrote:Michael,

Impressive!. When you glued the lead plates - did you use a hardening glue or a more elastic type adhesive? Just inquiring to figure if the damping benefit is mass or mass plus viscoelastic damping. In the 1st photos the rim drive showed a white edge, with later photo showing a black edge - what drove the change in material - just curious.

Stay well and enjoy your new project,

Neil


Hi Neil

My name is not Michael.

For the bottom leads I used some super glue too, besides the elastic adhesive that lead is coming with.
At the vertical side only the adhesive that came with the lead.

The Fly wheel white o’ring is the one that came from VPI. The black you saw later is EPDM calibrated o’ring. This material makes a huge difference and contributes to higher speed stability.

The use of EPDM belts and o’rings to my rim drive was the first upgrade I did; and it was a significant upgrade. The EPDM last longer too.

I had later replaced the SS bearing with SI3N4 and the Peek with Sapphire that was a significant upgrade too.

At that time I had seen that the Rim drive fly wheel’s adjustable shaft is very loose and was vibrating. Dealing with this issue too I saw a improvement

Later I added mass, replaced the ADS with Phoenix Engineering Eagle and Roadrunner (this was a huge improvement). The stable and precise speed Is causing goosebumps.

Currently with the BLDC motors I think that the rim drive is completed. For the next two weeks I will be using the rim drive with the class d amplifier; and later I will try the Class AB amplifier.

I have been experimenting with the rim drive for quite some months now as you will see from the attached photo.

During this time I have seen that the motor, the driver and the power supply it’s the most important element of the turntable; and I am afraid that Bill Carlin was one of the very few, who had managed to address the matter successfully.

Without a proper motor and controller all the rest of the upgrades are meaningless. Next most important is the Tonearm, then the plinth and the platter.

Besides the sonic improvement which I have experienced with every upgrade I did, I verified the same with measurements too, in terms of noise, vibration, wow and flutter measurements.

Stay safe too

VA

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P.S. for those who are interested I can send for free the 110 Volts components and Hurst Motor’s which where removed from the BLDC RIM drive

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Re: New project: RIM drive with BLDC motors & Class ABamp

Postby theeng » Sun May 10, 2020 12:12 am

VA,

Apologies on the name, confused you with someone else. I am familiar with EPDM, I switched to those for my TNT (dual belts/SDS) some years ago. Overall similar to your own experience EPDM is superior to the Buna-N and not subject to ozone cracking. Otherwise, just curious on how you attached the lead, but as you said these were truck wheel weights so the adhesive they use is pretty secure, and may act similar to a viscoelastic layer adding some additional dampening. Quite a project you did for yourself.

Stay Safe,

Neil
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Re: New project: RIM drive with BLDC motors & Class ABamp

Postby vienna acoustics » Sun May 10, 2020 1:34 am

No problem Neil.
For your reference some photos showing the truck wheels’ lead attached at the rim drive :

1. Rim drive bottom :

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2. Rime drive inner vertical side :

B83B1DCD-38C0-41B4-86D1-ADDB59750296.jpeg
B83B1DCD-38C0-41B4-86D1-ADDB59750296.jpeg (2.8 MiB) Viewed 759 times
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Re: New project: RIM drive with BLDC motors & Class ABamp

Postby Broadway90 » Sun May 10, 2020 9:23 am

Hi Vienna...

Congratulations on an amazing project.

As a single motor rim drive user on a TNT HR5 I was wondering if you could post your source for the EPDM O ring. I have used the stock VPI O ring and some from McMaster Carr (size 161, durometer 70A, Buna N). All seem imperfect, loosing contact one time with every revolution.

Thanks!
Andy
Grado Epoch/Gimbal Fatboy/TNT HR 5 with rim drive, aluminum platter, no suspension/VAS Citation One/Sophia Electric 91-01-300B/Omega SAM
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Re: New project: RIM drive with BLDC motors & Class ABamp

Postby vienna acoustics » Sun May 10, 2020 10:26 am

Well this is a killer drive system. It’s completely upgrading my Avenger Reference.
The combination of the BLDC Condor rim drive and Avenger is outstanding. I feel like that music is playing louder with the pre amp at the same setting. The Sound’s accuracy, drive, details and dynamics have reached really high levels. It seems that the inertia of the heavy magnetic drive platter and slave platter have some short of synergy with the new high torque rim drive as the speed is way more stable comparing to my previous hurst +eagle combination, or perhaps this is due to the new aluminum pulleys .

@broadway90 the epdm belts and flywheel o’ring were tailored made for me by Trelleborg AG in Germany (https://www.trelleborg.com/en). They are not the kind of company that will deal with retail market, but due to our long business collaboration they accepted to manufacture a bunch for me to very strict tolerances. They were made to high iso standards.
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Re: New project: RIM drive with BLDC motors & Class ABamp

Postby Mr_Putty » Sun May 10, 2020 1:12 pm

VA,
Beautiful project. I have some novice questions for you.
1. Did you make any digital recordings for comparison as you upgraded?
2. Have you noticed anything significant in using record clamps in regards to your rim drive upgrade? I’m curious what clamp you like and does it still function as intended sonically?
3. Have you compared using double the number of drive belts on the new BLDC rim drive with the single belt setup shown in the photos? It looks possible and is a very basic question to me.
4. A bit off topic... Is wanting the motor upgrade you did but in a Prime motor housing just wishful thinking?
Looking forward to reading more about your project.
JTA
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Re: New project: RIM drive with BLDC motors & Class ABamp

Postby vienna acoustics » Sun May 10, 2020 1:43 pm

Mr_Putty wrote:VA,
Beautiful project. I have some novice questions for you.
1. Did you make any digital recordings for comparison as you upgraded?
2. Have you noticed anything significant in using record clamps in regards to your rim drive upgrade? I’m curious what clamp you like and does it still function as intended sonically?
3. Have you compared using double the number of drive belts on the new BLDC rim drive with the single belt setup shown in the photos? It looks possible and is a very basic question to me.
4. A bit off topic... Is wanting the motor upgrade you did but in a Prime motor housing just wishful thinking?
Looking forward to reading more about your project.
JTA

Hi Mr Putty,

In regards with your message :

1. No I didn’t , I got rid of all my digital equipment two months ago at the time I got the Phoenix Engineering Eagle and Roadrunner. The Avenger reference with Bill Carlin products killed my EMM DA2 Dac (30,000 euro) and my Aurender N10 streamer (10,000 euro). I just can’t listen to digital anymore.
2. I have tried many record clamps and always I am returning back to Stillpoints LPI. The same stands for the BLDC rim drive. I would add that the periphery ring is a must too. Besides the obvious (to flatten the records). I am very impressed with its effect to the wow/flutter measurements.it seems that the added mass is beneficial for the turntable. Also it seems that it has some Positive effect on the platter’s resonances. Besides that if you are using a mat, try a vinyl made mat Like the inexpensive Clearaudio . The results are measurable and audible.
3. With the original VPI belts the use of double belts had a positive effect. With EPDM belts the use of double belts doesn’t make any audible or measurable difference.
4. I think SOTA is providing a ready solution for the prime motors it’s named eclipse package and consists of the BLDC motor the condor and roadrunner. I am now 100% convinced that you should go for it and the metal pulley. The improvement it’s huge and audible from the first second of listening. It’s an amazing experience to listen to a record with this level of accuracy, timing, precision and stability.

If you will manage to get in contact with Bill he will explain you the amazing Condor’ s logic and algorithm.

A while ago, I wrote a message to Bill Carlin to thank him once again for this superb project.
I still can’t believe how a genius like him has opted to leave the industry, the moment that he has so many things to offer and how VPI lost such a huge opportunity....really unbelievable
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Re: New project: RIM drive with BLDC motors & Class ABamp

Postby Dorian » Mon May 11, 2020 12:31 pm

Mr_Putty wrote:4. A bit off topic... Is wanting the motor upgrade you did but in a Prime motor housing just wishful thinking?

I can confirm this is doable as I did it myself. It's a great upgrade. As VA says you purchase SOTA's Condor Total Eclipse package. SOTA developed this in conjunction with Bill Carlin (really Bill developed it and I think SOTA agreed to productionalize it). SOTA needs to make some modifications to the Prime motor housing to physically fit the new motor so I recommend contacting SOTA directly.
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