Power Cords

Re: Power Cords

Postby Orchids1 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:28 pm

Votan, My posts are not ironic, which I suppose is what you mean by “ironicize”, a word I’ve never seen before. I certainly didn’t say or imply that people who hear a difference using high-end power cords are delusional. In fact, I said just the opposite. To say that I suggested that people who perceive a sonic difference “may require psychiatric support” is just plain false and trumped up. It’s also not my style. I did say that a widely accepted phenomena is that people who expect to perceive a difference, are likely to perceive a difference. Conversely, I’d guess that people who do not expect to perceive a difference, are unlikely to perceive a difference. This is very different from a placebo, which, by the way, is designed to be inert. I wound up by suggesting, without expressly stating, that the different perceptions are parts of our different subjective realities. That would make them equally valid. Rich
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Re: Power Cords

Postby Votan » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:57 pm

Rich my previous post responded to the initial content and style of your original post, wich shortly afterwards you sharply edited to a much acquiesced and consensual style, on which your last clarifications above are based. Unfortunately I didn't use the "quote" in my OP, so all our debate from now on is meaningless (if not a bit unfairly fixed from you).
Returning to topic's OP, If you want my advice stop looking at various audio blogs how many audiophiles agree with your assessments on power cords, as well as the results of blind A/B tests that suit you, and just use your ears to open minded evaluate everything that could make your setup's sonics even better.
I'm done on this.
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Re: Power Cords

Postby Orchids1 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:56 am

Votan, I had not seen a post by you at the time I edited my post. I did not react to your post. My edits, which were not as you claim extensive, were intended to bring my post more in line with my thoughts on the subject. I suppose that is what the “edit” feature is intended to be used for. The edits did not change the substance of my post.

However, I have a much more serious bone to pick with you. I resent having statements and opinions that I did not express falsely attributed to me, particularly if they are rude and insulting to the members of the Forum and reflect poorly on me. Your posts are rife with these false attributions. For example, you falsely claim that I said that some posters “may require psychiatric support”. I don’t believe that, and never said anything like it. In fact, it is a ridiculous, hyperbolic misattribution. I can’t imagine why you found it necessary to make up such a claim. I also don’t know why my posts triggered such a vitriolic response from you. I hope that members who read this thread and are familiar with my other posts recognize that what you attribute to me over a rather trivial subject is out of character and can not be true. Rich
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Re: Power Cords

Postby suntea » Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:19 am

Orchids1 wrote:As I’ve said, I hear no difference between expensive aftermarket power cords and those supplied by component manufacturers. Nonetheless, I don’t dispute that other people hear a difference. I think the effects of power cords must be very listener and system dependent: 1) If you have truly power-hungry amplifiers, I would imagine that a thicker gauge power cable capable of delivering lots of current can improve sound, 2) if you are in a high EMI environment, certain power cables can most likely mitigate those effects, and 3) perhaps most important, if you expect that a piece of equipment will improve your sound, it is likely that you will hear an improvement. This third factor shouldn’t be written off as self deception offsetting buyer remorse. It’s an extremely common phenomena and has been statistically demonstrated, not just in psychoacoustic tests, but in tests of many different types of human perception. While it’s true that in most blind A/B tests of expensive and basic power cords, listeners have been unable to distinguish between the two, the effect of a listener’s anticipated sonic improvements does not play a role. Furthermore, the validity of these tests has been subject to more than a fair share of other criticisms. Although it may sound highfalutin, whether or not an expensive power cable makes a big, little or no difference invokes the question, “What is reality.” Rich

I hear no difference either. However, maybe you and I have "clean" power in our houses. Others may benefit from an expensive power cord and if so, thats a good thing.
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Re: Power Cords

Postby Orchids1 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:01 pm

Suntea, You are probably right. I do have clean power and a dedicated line running to my stereo system. Rich
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Re: Power Cords

Postby Votan » Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:37 pm

Orchids1 wrote:Votan, I had not seen a post by you at the time I edited my post. I did not react to your post. My edits, which were not as you claim extensive, were intended to bring my post more in line with my thoughts on the subject. I suppose that is what the “edit” feature is intended to be used for. The edits did not change the substance of my post.

Unfortunately, I have to come back, as issues of both procedural correctness and substance arise.
1. Orchids1, finally you acknowledge that you have edited your initial post after my responce had been posted. But once someone has uploaded a reply to your post (in this case my original reply to your initial pre-edited post) you are immediately informed that "This topic has received a reply since your last visit". You have edited your initial post at least 2 hours after you received this information. Furthermore, when you go to edit a post of yours, the first thing you see is if a reply has been posted.
2. You acknowledge that your initial post was not so much in line with your thoughts on the subject, so you edited it (to bring them more in line). But how can you accuse me of judging your initial views that you yourself (or even after my initial responce) saw as wrong and modified editing them?
3. Editing features are intended to be fairly used, up to the moment that no reply (especially with dissenting views) has been posted, and in accordance with the unwritten rules of fair play, certainly not to make (in a bit fixed way) a response to your post seem retrospectively meaningless (at best) or "vitriolic" at worst.
Really, how off site and meaningless would now look this very post of yours, if right after you posted it, I was editing my own original, removing all the phrases you mention that bothered you from my original post?
Orchids1 wrote:However, I have a much more serious bone to pick with you. I resent having statements and opinions that I did not express falsely attributed to me, particularly if they are rude and insulting to the members of the Forum and reflect poorly on me. Your posts are rife with these false attributions. For example, you falsely claim that I said that some posters “may require psychiatric support”. I don’t believe that, and never said anything like it. In fact, it is a ridiculous, hyperbolic misattribution. I can’t imagine why you found it necessary to make up such a claim. I also don’t know why my posts triggered such a vitriolic response from you. I hope that members who read this thread and are familiar with my other posts recognize that what you attribute to me over a rather trivial subject is out of character and can not be true. Rich

What were the exact eliminated points of your initial (pre-edited) post that triggered such a response from me? Just those researches you rely on in your (pre-edited) post, that those who believe that power cables (or similar pieces of equipment) will improve their sound, are about to suffer from a form of delusion, a state that has been confirmed as well from psychoacoustic and A/B blind tests.
And now we get to the essence of the issue that was created. To you personally I only address the 1st row of my post, namely: " Dear Orchids1, It's your right and I respect it, not to hear any difference between power cables".
The rest of my original post if you read it carefully, is generally and vaguely addressed to all these "snake-oilers" of the dozens of various audio blogs (attention, I am not referring to members of this forum, nor to you personally) who either pray on and paraphrase scientific studies, or use some naively simplistic theories, to attack, LOL and ridicule all those who believe in the importance of power cables.
The essence of my initial post was that I was really tired of listening to these one-sided and unsupported theories, so-called scientific studies and blind tests, which (and here's the only one for you personally) you are using so much as almost exclusive arguments to support your view that power cords do not differ in sound. Michael.
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Re: Power Cords

Postby Orchids1 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:52 pm

Votan, This has gone on long enough. If you reread my posts carefully, I don’t believe that you ought to be offended by any of them. Although it’s not particularly important at this juncture, I didn’t happen to see a notice that you had already replied to my unedited post (Indeed, I have never, ever seen such a notice.), and even if I had, I don’t understand why you feel that I should have instantly read your reply. All in all, I find all of your replies to be a bit odd and somewhat unsettling. Let’s agree to discontinue this exchange. Rich
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Re: Power Cords

Postby DonFrio » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:30 pm

Its lovely to see that imagination is alive and well in grownups such that they still think power cords can remove previously 'dirty power' or that any emi picked up is enough to change the power heading towards a power supply that will then filter the power and remove anything above 60hz anyway. Rf would be several orders of magnitude higher. Since power cord manufacturers wont even say what their design goals are (at least theres design goals like low inductance and high capacitance etc in speaker and interconnect cables- which I happen to believe can make a small difference).
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Re: Power Cords

Postby Golear » Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:26 am

This is the interesting article that was mentioned in another post:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/har ... t-tweaking

Why do power cords and power filtering equipment affect the sound? Because conventional electrical theory and measurements ignore a slew of real-world issues. Kirchoff's Laws, and Ohm's Law are fine for steady state measurements and non-audio applications, but all bets are off when the signal changes as much as it does in hifi. The reason why the real-world issues are ignored are because it's impossible to do the math if you try to account for crosstalk, backtalk and sidetalk. So engineers simplify the picture. Is there a cost to the simplification? Our ears say yes. And it's impossible to predict those things when a circuit is designed. They come up when you make the PCB, and put resistors, capacitors, diodes, transformers, tubes and transistors in a real device. I'm sure we can add other things - like parasitic capacitance and parasitic inductance.

Anyway, it's interesting that, now, they're coming up with measurements that may reveal these things. The sound of a power cord might not have anything to do with RFI, EMI, it's capacitance, inductance, resistance, or the quality of the mains power (which, in most cases, will be very, very good). It has to do with the amp itself! And contrary to the simplified math, the characteristics of the power cord does affect the circuit downstream. We might even say that interconnects and speaker wire are also interacting with the electronics.

All this will be very system dependent. What to make of reviews? Ignore them, because your specific system will behave differently.
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Re: Power Cords

Postby Votan » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:22 am

Golear wrote:Why do power cords and power filtering equipment affect the sound? Because conventional electrical theory and measurements ignore a slew of real-world issues. Kirchoff's Laws, and Ohm's Law are fine for steady state measurements and non-audio applications, but all bets are off when the signal changes as much as it does in hifi. The reason why the real-world issues are ignored are because it's impossible to do the math if you try to account for crosstalk, backtalk and sidetalk. So engineers simplify the picture. Is there a cost to the simplification? Our ears say yes. And it's impossible to predict those things when a circuit is designed. They come up when you make the PCB, and put resistors, capacitors, diodes, transformers, tubes and transistors in a real device. I'm sure we can add other things - like parasitic capacitance and parasitic inductance.

Anyway, it's interesting that, now, they're coming up with measurements that may reveal these things. The sound of a power cord might not have anything to do with RFI, EMI, it's capacitance, inductance, resistance, or the quality of the mains power (which, in most cases, will be very, very good). It has to do with the amp itself! And contrary to the simplified math, the characteristics of the power cord does affect the circuit downstream. We might even say that interconnects and speaker wire are also interacting with the electronics.

All this will be very system dependent. What to make of reviews? Ignore them, because your specific system will behave differently.

+1 Golear, very well-founded argumentation...
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