Considering a Subwoofer

Re: Considering a Subwoofer

Postby TomD » Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:44 pm

madrac wrote:As babybird suggested, I'd look at the Rythmiks as well. I have the E15HP, which I purchased through Ascend Acoustics.


I also have the E15HP internals, but cabinets are made by Salk Sound. Jim Salk is super easy to work with and the cabinets can be made in any wood veneer or custom paint color you would like. You just pay the cost of the veneer/paint, which is pretty minor. I also had him make mine in a down firing configuration so they double as lamp stands/coffee tables with an added glass top. They are super heavy so don't vibrate at all, which I think also contributes to how good they sound. When I have friends over, nobody has a clue they are subwoofers - they just fit in with the furniture.

http://www.salksound.com/type.php?format=Subwoofer

As others have mentioned I would recommend 2 if you can place them - it really makes a huge improvement. If not, at least consider some sort of outboard digital bass management. Getting to a flat frequency response makes all the difference. Without proper setup and integration, a subwoofer can be a big step backwards.
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Re: Considering a Subwoofer

Postby madrac » Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:22 pm

TomD wrote:
madrac wrote:As babybird suggested, I'd look at the Rythmiks as well. I have the E15HP, which I purchased through Ascend Acoustics.


I also have the E15HP internals, but cabinets are made by Salk Sound. Jim Salk is super easy to work with and the cabinets can be made in any wood veneer or custom paint color you would like. You just pay the cost of the veneer/paint, which is pretty minor. I also had him make mine in a down firing configuration so they double as lamp stands/coffee tables with an added glass top. They are super heavy so don't vibrate at all, which I think also contributes to how good they sound. When I have friends over, nobody has a clue they are subwoofers - they just fit in with the furniture.

http://www.salksound.com/type.php?format=Subwoofer



Nice looking cabinet on the Salk site for the E15 - definitely much better looking than the standard Rythmik! I used my former sub (Outlaw) as a coffee table, as well
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Re: Considering a Subwoofer

Postby rif » Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:37 am

If you're patient and don't mind used, you can find real gems on Craigslist. That's right, Craigslist. No one wants to ship a sub, so many dump them there. Velodyne and svs are always there. You just need to filter out all the car subs.
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Re: Considering a Subwoofer

Postby JimTimP » Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:58 pm

Well, this thread has got me thinking. So, I checked the frequency response charts for the speakers I have. Those speakers were built from the Kit offered on Madisound.com. Designed by John Krutke, using ScanSpeak Revelator 7.5 inch mid/woofers and Illuminator tweeter. According to the frequency response charts, there's a sharp drop below 70 Hz. This coincides with what my Brother In Law - a symphonic musician (Oboe) - said. That the bottom octave was weak. Something I also felt, but accepted.

So, I ordered a 250 W class AB plate amp (no class D amp, thank you) and a 10" ScanSpeak Revelator woofer. I'll build a 1" thick MDF cabinet, sealed to match the cabinets of the main speakers and prevent boomy bass better reserved for a surround sound system. I'll also get some Cherry Veneer to make the cabinet match the others. According to published frequency curves this should all work well.

I currently have the amp and woofer burning in on the bench while I feed it a signal from my AF Generator at 19hz (the woofers Rs or Resonance in free air). Since it's 19 Hz and sub audible, I can leave it on overnight and the entire weekend if I choose. That'll mean the driver and amp are fully 'broken in before I even build the cabinet. I'm thinking 2.75 Cu Ft for the cabinet. Bringing it down to 2.3 Cu Ft after factoring the space loss by the bracing, driver and plate amp.

Right now, the driver was $375 and the plate amp $150. Cabinet and veneer will be about another $100. It better turn out good....
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Re: Considering a Subwoofer

Postby Orchids1 » Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:05 am

JimTimP, I think it's pretty cool that you build your own speakers. These days, most people lack the knowledge and skill to pull that off, but I remember when high quality speakers were frequently built from plans, kits (such as Madisound) and even from scratch by folks who thought they could, and sometimes did, make better speakers than those sold by manufacturers. You're using a really good driver with a proper amp. I hope you report your impressions of the sub's sound. Rich
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Re: Considering a Subwoofer

Postby Stringreen » Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:15 pm

I don't think its all that important to get an expensive sub...placement's the thing.
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Re: Considering a Subwoofer

Postby JimTimP » Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:41 pm

I believe the placement I already have the speakers in allows me to accept their performance. Could it be better? Yup. And If I get away with building a sub for $600 that performs equal to or better than a 1 or 2 K sub, groovy (trying to bring that phrase back...).

Placement isn't going to change this:

Capture.PNG
Capture.PNG (28.53 KiB) Viewed 305 times


And this chart is the ungated and raw in room sweep with mic 2.5 meters from the drivers and on axis:

Capture1.PNG
Capture1.PNG (29.31 KiB) Viewed 303 times
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Re: Considering a Subwoofer

Postby JimTimP » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:39 am

Orchids1 wrote:JimTimP, I think it's pretty cool that you build your own speakers. These days, most people lack the knowledge and skill to pull that off, but I remember when high quality speakers were frequently built from plans, kits (such as Madisound) and even from scratch by folks who thought they could, and sometimes did, make better speakers than those sold by manufacturers. You're using a really good driver with a proper amp. I hope you report your impressions of the sub's sound. Rich


Well, I got it completed over the weekend. But I did something not quite too smart, but reversible. I changed two elements at the same time. No way to know which is causing the difference. But I can fix that easily. More later.

The new sub can get loud if I wish it to. Too loud in fact and would also make a great sub for a surround sound system. So, I've found the gain control to be at around the 9 O'clock position to be about right. Some of the first music I played over it was much fuller and dynamic. I certainly did like the new sound. The bass from the sub is very controlled and 'tight' Not a lot of excessive 'thump' unless I turn up the gain and change the phasing. Not what I'm looking for, so back down to around the 9 O'Clock position where it belongs.

I listened to Holst The Planet with Georg Solti conduction the London Symphony. The music was very lively and the deep tones I had been hearing in the past were much purer and moving. As in moving my chest. I also listened to 2 Cellos, Celloverse and in particular The Benedictus. This piece is very soulful and shows why I believe the cello to be the musical equivalent of emotion. And these two guys re not good, they are great. I was not disappointed, but rather taken back to the first time I heard this piece and almost brought to tears.

Now, the second change I made. I also added a new Cartridge to the table at the same time. Having two tonearms to swap out, I mounted my new Lyra Delos to the VPI 10 3D, leaving the Soundsmith Voice on the VPI 10 3DR. This young cartridge (about 5 hours at this point) was doing a good job, but sounded constrained and less dynamic. But it's young. I swapped the Voice back in and listened to the 2nd side of The Planets again. This is also a disc I purchased back in the 80's and it still sound very good. A scratch or two and some pops, but for the most part very silent. The dynamics and very controlled bass were very much there and of course the bass filled the rather small room (why I went for the 10" driver versus a 12 or larger) and was very pleasant to hear. I do think the Delos will grow into a very well performing cartridge when it opens up, so I do not regret that purchase (I bought it to discover the difference between MM/MI/MC cartridge designs).

So, am I happy with the sub? Certainly. Not a difficult build, but certainly woodworking skills and knowledge of tools is required. First time I did any type of veneer work. Not difficult, but there are certainly tricks I need to learn. All in all a nice project.
Last edited by JimTimP on Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Considering a Subwoofer

Postby Orchids1 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:46 pm

I think you're being a little too self effacing. Congratulations on a job well done. Rich
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Re: Considering a Subwoofer

Postby 10ovr » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:36 pm

Lets see some pix of the bad boy sub,,,,,Love see-n wood work :geek:
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