Another azimuth question

Re: Another azimuth question

Postby Mr_Putty » Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:56 am

Opti...
VTA will certainly affect soundstage and left right balance. (Unless you have an arm with no offset.) If you are using a mat and/or clamp you should check the flatness of a good reference record of your choosing when it’s ready to play. Sometimes a mat will cause a saucer shape which will affect A/S and azimuth. I use friction tape on my platter to give me more control of flatness, and I like the sound better than a rubber mat or nothing. I use a Peter Paul and Mary, Ten Years Together as one of my test records. It’s thin so any cupping is easy to see and adjust and it has a wide inner dead air space on side two that’s good to check A/S. It was a $3 purchase that still sound pretty good. I don’t like thin records but it has a purpose.
Mr_Putty
Senior Member
 
Posts: 336
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:44 am

Re: Another azimuth question

Postby Brf » Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:25 am

Optimationman wrote:I have just joined the VPI family, and have been adjusting my alignment for about a week. Using a Wallytractor, a vintage test record,
and limited experience, I hit what I feel, the sweet spot or close. I can certainly hear the effects of changes in the VTA, brighter to softer(stronger bass) within small vertical adjustments. I have wedged the cartridge slightly downward on the inside edge to get the cartridge/stylus parallel to the record surface.

The interesting change in the VTA is that it also seems to shift the soundstage to the right slightly when lowering the arm. Is this due to an azmith change? What do you experienced vinyl guys think and what parameter in my alignment might not be optimized?


If you have not already bought the optional dual pivot point for the tonearm, I highly recommend it. Not only does it make azimuth adjustments easier, it improves the overall sound.
User avatar
Brf
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4193
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:23 am

Re: Another azimuth question

Postby Optimationman » Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:18 pm

A couple of points in my situation. My deck has a modded Rega RB300 arm at present making azmith adjustment more difficult to optimize. I have just started experimenting, so I am not using a mat on the platter. I do use the clamp during play, thus some cupping of the record surface takes place. Additionally, I have that same PP&M album, probably cost about the same $3, but when I bought mine that was the retail price........wooooooo.

My present "test record" (as old as the PP&M album) has two tracks I use for azmith adjustment. 1st track, 1k hz left, 300 hz. right. 2 ND track freqs switched. I turn the channel with the 300 off, and subjectivity judge the volume of the 300 hz on the opposite channel, then repeat the process on the next tract turning off the opposite side. Then judge the louder of the two and make the appropriate azmith adjustment till both have the same volume. Next would be to measure(scope) instead of judging volume differences.
I know there are other ways and devices to do the same thing, its just what I have at this time.

One ear isn't as good as the other, making all this more interesting, having fun....
Optimationman
Member
 
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:58 pm

Re: Another azimuth question

Postby Optimationman » Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:43 pm

One last item. I have used the suggested method for A/S adjustment I read somewhere. Use the inner dead track area on the record and adjusts the A/S such that the stylus floats, not moving in it outward until captured by the end track. That is how mine is set at present...
Optimationman
Member
 
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:58 pm

Re: Another azimuth question

Postby Mr_Putty » Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:21 pm

Optimationman wrote:One last item. I have used the suggested method for A/S adjustment I read somewhere. Use the inner dead track area on the record and adjusts the A/S such that the stylus floats, not moving in it outward until captured by the end track. That is how mine is set at present...


Suggestion you may have done already,
Check the a/s at the beginning of the record track as the arm floats in air. Compare that to the arms action while floating near the inner grooves. My comparisons are based on what the arm does from a stopped state in each position (after an initial setting on a record near the inner grooves). I do this to evaluate what the arm wiring is doing to the a/s and then decide what to do next. My goal is to have very little arm movement at the first grooves.

For your dished records you can try to raise the record a bit near the spindle to keep it flat after clamping. See photo. The photo shows my Prime platter. The amount of lift needed will depend on any label recess in the platter, what you use for a mat, and whether the lift area is within the outer diameter of a clamp (like the VPI spindle screw clamp). I am using two layers of friction tape near the spindle topped with a stick on hard-silicone dot. For my platter I need one layer of tape for the recorded part of the record. Note the distance of the dots from the spindle. That does make a difference as will the clamp design and any clamping pressure you use. Trial and error is your friend. 3M Friction tape will compress a bit over time but is easy to remove later or for trying different setups. I think it’s amazing, but it is difficult to cut with sizzers (very sticky), so I recommend putting it on a piece of glass and cutting it with a sharp xacto knife. You can try different materials for the dots. I may try dimes next, for example.
Attachments
D96B9224-3DCF-45AC-94B9-A46CAF9CB12E.jpeg
Record lift near spindle.
D96B9224-3DCF-45AC-94B9-A46CAF9CB12E.jpeg (393.24 KiB) Viewed 2182 times
Mr_Putty
Senior Member
 
Posts: 336
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:44 am

Re: Another azimuth question

Postby Optimationman » Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:39 pm

Interesting technique Mr_putty. The more I delve into this vinyl stuff, the more attention to detail seems to bring compromising into play. Or more fiddling. Change a record, change the adjustments or adjust to a compromise and leave well enough alone. Not sure what camp I'll settle into. I have many slightly warped records, so the clamping until slightly dished flattens them. One of those compromises. VTA on the fly arm adjustments just throws off the finely adjusted azmith. Seems a finely tuned VTA has a greater effect on the sound than azmith, compromise. Lots to learn here, thanks for more ideas.
Optimationman
Member
 
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:58 pm

Re: Another azimuth question

Postby Mr_Putty » Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:40 pm

Optimationman wrote:Interesting technique Mr_putty. The more I delve into this vinyl stuff, the more attention to detail seems to bring compromising into play. Or more fiddling. Change a record, change the adjustments or adjust to a compromise and leave well enough alone. Not sure what camp I'll settle into. I have many slightly warped records, so the clamping until slightly dished flattens them. One of those compromises. VTA on the fly arm adjustments just throws off the finely adjusted azmith. Seems a finely tuned VTA has a greater effect on the sound than azmith, compromise. Lots to learn here, thanks for more ideas.


I’m always looking for budget improvements. They are based on general theory and the good tweeks are repeatable results, so no regrets. BTW, I tried 3 dimes on top of one layer of friction tape last night, (on the platter). The setup was like in my posted photo. The tape is sticky enough that after the first record clamp down, they stick. I predicted they would. I positioned the heads up. The better sound is shifting into the live sound zone. I recommend the change. One concern is the small contact between the dimes and the record label, that may put some wear on the label. Nothing noted so far. The tape in direct contact with a label will stick, however. I have used patches of aluminum foil over the tape to eliminate this. You need to press the foil firmly onto the tape to get initial adhesion. I can see the texture of the tape after I do this. IMHO, The difficult part of audio is learning where others have gone and putting you head in the game. Sometimes it’s two steps forward and one back. Compromise is everywhere and deciding what you want/like is part of it.
Mr_Putty
Senior Member
 
Posts: 336
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:44 am

Re: Another azimuth question

Postby Stringreen » Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:22 pm

...just wondering if anyone tried the dimes trick using earphones....interesting.
Stringreen
Senior Member
 
Posts: 483
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:27 am

Re: Another azimuth question

Postby thegage » Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:34 pm

Can’t you just cut the tape in a circle slightly larger than the dime? That way you wouldn’t have to worry about it sticking to the label.
TNT Jr, Classic platter, Eminent Technology ET-2/VPI JMW 12 3D, Hana ML, Moon 310LP, PrimaLuna ProLogue Premium Preamp, PrimaLuna ProLogue Five, Golden Ear Triton 2+, Martin Logan Depth
thegage
Senior Member
 
Posts: 444
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:41 am

Re: Another azimuth question

Postby Mr_Putty » Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:40 pm

thegage wrote:Can’t you just cut the tape in a circle slightly larger than the dime? That way you wouldn’t have to worry about it sticking to the label.


There is probably a way. My comment about the tape sticking to labels was when it’s used without anything on top of it. No problem with dimes or silicone dots on tape, you just need some clearance. :-)
Mr_Putty
Senior Member
 
Posts: 336
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:44 am

Previous

Return to General Chat

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 5 guests

x