new HW-19 Mkiii owner questions

Re: new HW-19 Mkiii owner questions

Postby Brf » Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:43 am

You need a minimum of 5 post before your post are no longer moderated. You’re good to go now.

Turntable bearing oils should be referenced to the oil’s summer weight, not the winter rating as a table bearing is never below freezing. Unless your bearing has become worn, a 50w oil produces too much drag on the bearing.
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Re: new HW-19 Mkiii owner questions

Postby twentyhertz » Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:53 pm

JimmyL wrote:I just picked up the same platter and built my JR into a hot-rodded MK3. The platter made a big difference over the acrylic, the plinth probably added to it but the JMW 10.5i Classic 3 arm really made it. I'm waiting for my new protractor to arrive to finish dialing this in but, I'm guessing I already have it close as this table is the best I've heard - I'm not that knowledgeable with many higher end tables - so no idea how it would compare but I'm loving this rig for performance and the simple beauty.

What tone arm/cart are you using?


this is certainly the best table I've ever heard. I have the jMW-9 memorial arm. Not sure the differences between yours and mine (aside from an inch or so :)).

I'm using an ortofon vivo blue which has been repladed by the quintet line I believe? works very nicely with this arm but although if you had asked me a year ago if I'd ever spend more than $500 on a cart i'd have said no. The modded HW-19 has made me reconsider...

Have fun with your table!!
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Re: new HW-19 Mkiii owner questions

Postby twentyhertz » Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:01 pm

Brf wrote:You need a minimum of 5 post before your post are no longer moderated. You’re good to go now.

Turntable bearing oils should be referenced to the oil’s summer weight, not the winter rating as a table bearing is never below freezing. Unless your bearing has become worn, a 50w oil produces too much drag on the bearing.


um I respectfully disagree. While yes my turntable will never freeze, it will most likely not ever get over what 100 deg? So it will never come anywhere close to the operating temperature of a racing engine, which is when the oil changes to it's higher viscosity. But once I get a decent strobe set up I'll do some testing so we'll both know! 8-)
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Re: new HW-19 Mkiii owner questions

Postby Brf » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:28 pm

twentyhertz wrote:
Brf wrote:You need a minimum of 5 post before your post are no longer moderated. You’re good to go now.

Turntable bearing oils should be referenced to the oil’s summer weight, not the winter rating as a table bearing is never below freezing. Unless your bearing has become worn, a 50w oil produces too much drag on the bearing.


um I respectfully disagree. While yes my turntable will never freeze, it will most likely not ever get over what 100 deg? So it will never come anywhere close to the operating temperature of a racing engine, which is when the oil changes to it's higher viscosity. But once I get a decent strobe set up I'll do some testing so we'll both know! 8-)


The issue with the correct oil viscosity is not about absolute speed, but ensuring that the motor is operating an optimal level. Too much drag caused by too high of an oil viscosity will cause the motor to work harder and consume more watts to remain in synchronous speed. This results in more noise being transferred from the drive mechanism to the platter.

0w50 “grade” synthetic oil is not a light oil. The base oil is SAE 50 which is modified to have a high “Viscosity Index’ rating which is used to quantify the rate of change between two temperatures. At a temp of -10C, 0w50 will have a viscosity of approximately 150cSt. At 100C the viscosity reduces to approximately 20cSt. Standard SAE 50 oil will have a -10C viscosity of 2,000cSt and reduces to 20cSt at 100C. Note that 0w50 and SAE 50 have the same viscosity rating at 100C, but significantly differ at -10C and that is why 0w50 is recommended for cold temperatures.

It should also be noted that the Viscosity Index rating between two temperatures is not linear and acts more like a logarithmic function. What that means is that at colder temperatures, the viscosity decreases more rapidly than at warm temps. Turntable bearings operate at around 25-30C which is closer to the oil’s base index rating at 100C, therefore, the viscosity difference between 25C and 100C is not that great
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Re: new HW-19 Mkiii owner questions

Postby madrac » Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:28 pm

Brf wrote:
twentyhertz wrote:
Brf wrote:You need a minimum of 5 post before your post are no longer moderated. You’re good to go now.

Turntable bearing oils should be referenced to the oil’s summer weight, not the winter rating as a table bearing is never below freezing. Unless your bearing has become worn, a 50w oil produces too much drag on the bearing.


um I respectfully disagree. While yes my turntable will never freeze, it will most likely not ever get over what 100 deg? So it will never come anywhere close to the operating temperature of a racing engine, which is when the oil changes to it's higher viscosity. But once I get a decent strobe set up I'll do some testing so we'll both know! 8-)


The issue with the correct oil viscosity is not about absolute speed, but ensuring that the motor is operating an optimal level. Too much drag caused by too high of an oil viscosity will cause the motor to work harder and consume more watts to remain in synchronous speed. This results in more noise being transferred from the drive mechanism to the platter.

0w50 “grade” synthetic oil is not a light oil. The base oil is SAE 50 which is modified to have a high “Viscosity Index’ rating which is used to quantify the rate of change between two temperatures. At a temp of -10C, 0w50 will have a viscosity of approximately 150cSt. At 100C the viscosity reduces to approximately 20cSt. Standard SAE 50 oil will have a -10C viscosity of 2,000cSt and reduces to 20cSt at 100C. Note that 0w50 and SAE 50 have the same viscosity rating at 100C, but significantly differ at -10C and that is why 0w50 is recommended for cold temperatures.

It should also be noted that the Viscosity Index rating between two temperatures is not linear and acts more like a logarithmic function. What that means is that at colder temperatures, the viscosity decreases more rapidly than at warm temps. Turntable bearings operate at around 25-30C which is closer to the oil’s base index rating at 100C, therefore, the viscosity difference between 25C and 100C is not that great


Actually, a 0W50 would not have a base oil similar to an SAE 50. To meet 0W, it's likely made with a 4 cSt Group III and/or with PAO as the base oil. To get the 50 in the 0W-50, a viscosity modifier would be added to meet the required Kinematic vis at 100C and high shear dynamic vis at 150C. On the other hand, the straight 50 would be made with more viscous base oils and no viscosity modifier. The W is an indication of the ability of an oil to allow an engine to crank and then also pump... for a 0W, this is -35C (cranking) and -40C (pumping)
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Re: new HW-19 Mkiii owner questions

Postby Brf » Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:49 pm

madrac wrote:
Actually, a 0W50 would not have a base oil similar to an SAE 50. To meet 0W, it's likely made with a 4 cSt Group III and/or with PAO as the base oil. To get the 50 in the 0W-50, a viscosity modifier would be added to meet the required Kinematic vis at 100C and high shear dynamic vis at 150C. On the other hand, the straight 50 would be made with more viscous base oils and no viscosity modifier. The W is an indication of the ability of an oil to allow an engine to crank and then also pump... for a 0W, this is -35C (cranking) and -40C (pumping)


I would agree with you 100% if we are talking about mineral based oils, but my comments were based on synthetic oils.
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Re: new HW-19 Mkiii owner questions

Postby billo » Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:40 am

My HW-19 MKIV has the Applied Fidelity Saphire pad and Ceramic bearing with supplied dino 40w oil. It out spins the PEEK pad and steel bearing with SuperLube (very light synthetic) by a wide margin. That is, it's much easier to spin by hand and spins much longer. Noise floor of a church.
FWIW

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Re: new HW-19 Mkiii owner questions

Postby JimmyL » Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:14 pm

billo wrote:My HW-19 MKIV has the Applied Fidelity Saphire pad and Ceramic bearing with supplied dino 40w oil. It out spins the PEEK pad and steel bearing with SuperLube (very light synthetic) by a wide margin. That is, it's much easier to spin by hand and spins much longer. Noise floor of a church.
FWIW

Bill


I wish Applied Fidelity was still around as I’d like to get the same bearing upgrade for my HW-19. I’ll have to start researching the DIY on this as it sounds like one of those relatively inexpensive upgrades. Any suggestions on where to get parts?
VPI HW19 mod’ed MK3 w/10.5i, Ortofon MC25FL, Musical Paradise MP501 V2 Integrated Tube amp, MP Tube Phono Pre, MP Tube D1 DAC, Harbeth P3esr’s
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Re: new HW-19 Mkiii owner questions

Postby madrac » Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:28 pm

Brf wrote:
madrac wrote:
Actually, a 0W50 would not have a base oil similar to an SAE 50. To meet 0W, it's likely made with a 4 cSt Group III and/or with PAO as the base oil. To get the 50 in the 0W-50, a viscosity modifier would be added to meet the required Kinematic vis at 100C and high shear dynamic vis at 150C. On the other hand, the straight 50 would be made with more viscous base oils and no viscosity modifier. The W is an indication of the ability of an oil to allow an engine to crank and then also pump... for a 0W, this is -35C (cranking) and -40C (pumping)


I would agree with you 100% if we are talking about mineral based oils, but my comments were based on synthetic oils.


The viscosity classification is independent of base oil type -- synthetic or mineral, the oil still needs to meet the same requirements. As per earlier comment, the 0W-50 and a straight SAE 50 are formulated differently.
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Re: new HW-19 Mkiii owner questions

Postby Brf » Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:03 am

madrac wrote:
Brf wrote:
madrac wrote:
Actually, a 0W50 would not have a base oil similar to an SAE 50. To meet 0W, it's likely made with a 4 cSt Group III and/or with PAO as the base oil. To get the 50 in the 0W-50, a viscosity modifier would be added to meet the required Kinematic vis at 100C and high shear dynamic vis at 150C. On the other hand, the straight 50 would be made with more viscous base oils and no viscosity modifier. The W is an indication of the ability of an oil to allow an engine to crank and then also pump... for a 0W, this is -35C (cranking) and -40C (pumping)


I would agree with you 100% if we are talking about mineral based oils, but my comments were based on synthetic oils.


The viscosity classification is independent of base oil type -- synthetic or mineral, the oil still needs to meet the same requirements. As per earlier comment, the 0W-50 and a straight SAE 50 are formulated differently.


You must have misread my post.

I never said that 0w50 and SAE 50 were formulated the same, I said that at 100C both 0w50 and SAE 50 will have the same viscosity, as will 5w50, 10w50. Although the viscosity index rating of each oil grade will be significantly different between the various grades i.e. cold temperature viscosity

Again, I never said that viscosity classification was dependent of base oil type, I said that 0w50 “synthetic” oil has a “base” oil of 50 (because it can be synthetically manufactured that way) and that “mineral” oil has a base oil of 0 in which viscosity index improvers (polymers) are added.

Other than the above semantics, I believe that we are on the same page.
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