Magnetic Platter bearing replacement - Sapphire and Si3N4

Re: Magnetic Platter bearing replacement - Sapphire and Si3N

Postby izk » Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:47 pm

Guild Optics: http://www.guildoptics.com
These guys are great on customer service. Chatted with a sales rep online. He found sapphire windows from their stock that met my requirements (between 15.0 and 15.8mm diameter, 1mm thick AND between 12.0 and 12.5mm diameter, 1mm thick) and quoted me $10ea in small quantities! Got a sales order on email immediately. Very high tolereances. Good stuff.
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Re: Magnetic Platter bearing replacement - Sapphire and Si3N

Postby tony22 » Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:40 pm

Thanks Issac,
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Re: Magnetic Platter bearing replacement - Sapphire and Si3N

Postby Votan » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:22 pm

Hi tony,
Finally, what about the squealing varied noise from your TT as the platter rotated through 360 degrees when you spun it by hand, that you detected recently?
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Re: Magnetic Platter bearing replacement - Sapphire and Si3N

Postby izk » Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:18 am

Can I inquire, when "super glue" is referred to in this topic, are we talking about Gorilla Super Glue?
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Re: Magnetic Platter bearing replacement - Sapphire and Si3N

Postby tony22 » Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:38 am

I used the Loctite Gel Super Glue. I think most who've done this had used a gel type super glue, although I've started wondering (based on some good recent comments from folks) if it would have been preferable to use a regular "thin" superglue for the ball. It would have to be done maybe a bit more carefully, but it might eliminate the question of whether the ball would settle absolutely to the "bottom" of the well. In my case I made absolutely sure that I had the ball centered on to the bottom of the well as the glue was setting, but the very nature of a "thick" glue leaves open the question as to whether it was perfect. There'd need a to be a thin type super glue that had some seconds worth of working time, though, if you wanted to use a thin glue. I think most thin super glues are essentially instant contact adhesion.
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Re: Magnetic Platter bearing replacement - Sapphire and Si3N

Postby Mr_Putty » Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:11 am

All THIN CA that I have used gradually becomes thicker over time. This means it also takes longer to “set” if it has aged. For long term storage of CA put it in a plastic bag with a desiccant if you have any. Never let it sit for any length of time with the top off. There are spray accelerators that work great, provided they have not been stored too long. (Test before use)
I personally like DAP RapidFuse for general hobby use. It may not be suitable for bearing ball replacement as it is a syrup viscosity and sets in 30 seconds, and cures in 30 minutes. But, it claims to be more durable than CA, and 40% stronger than polyurethane. For anyone wanting a really thin CA, Woodcraft sells a pen finishing CA that is almost like water. If we use a ceramic ball as a bearing replacement the type of glue may matter, as the ball has a very smooth surface. Removing all finger oils would seem to be an important part of the process, as would the “fit” or the new bearing in the shaft recess.
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Re: Magnetic Platter bearing replacement - Sapphire and Si3N

Postby tony22 » Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:19 am

Votan wrote:Hi tony,
Finally, what about the squealing varied noise from your TT as the platter rotated through 360 degrees when you spun it by hand, that you detected recently?


Michael, I've been hesitating responding to your question as it will demonstrate my idiocy in this little exercise, but the more I thought about it the more I thought it might save someone else from doing things that would result in a similar disaster.

You were right. :(

I'll back up a bit. I made two serious mistakes. The first was in my going out and trying to find the "perfect" lubricant. I examined the data I could find on the recommended lubes and figured this stuff

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00MW ... UTF8&psc=1

was probably the best thing I could possibly use. Pure PFPE/PTFE. Little did I know. The next mistake was thinking (incorrectly, as you referred to in http://www.vpiforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=9686&start=190#p55314) that a steady run in would be helpful in "setting" the bearing and sapphire plate. The combination of these two things caused a near fatal (but recoverable) mess.

It turns out - even with sapphire being the second hardest thing to diamond - that you can damage a sapphire plate. The combination of that lube and the several hours of run in caused damage to the plate. I believe the main culprit was the grease. I think now the viscosity was too low. This in combination with the pressure, and heat build up over the long running, caused the ball to grind a virtually perfect divot into the sapphire plate. That is what I wound up hearing. :cry: When I pulled the platter off, cleaned off all the grease, and examined the plate I saw a pinprick sized "grind out" from the plate. I suspect the low viscosity lube simply failed at that pressure and over that amount of time. The only good thing that came out of it (if I had to say anything about this was good) was that it was a pretty good indication the ball and plate orientation was dead nuts on, as there was no indication of a scored rotation or anything like that in the plate. I carefully examined the ball and, surprisingly, there was no apparent damage to it.

Since there was no way I'd ever get that glued in sapphire plate out, and since it was only .8mm thick, I finished thoroughly cleaning everything up and glued my backup plate on to the first one. Since most of the plates out there are either 1 or 2 mm, the total 1.6mm in my case didn't seem like I'd be too far out of expectations. This time I used Super Lube on the ball instead of trying to find some magically superior lube. That's one mistake I will never make again. Everything is back together and working properly, thank goodness. A minor tweak to the VTA dial to account for the slight difference due to the second plate and it's all good.

So for those of you thinking about doing this - don't try to be a smart a$$ about it! Just follow the guide posted by Brent, use the same lube(s) that have been proven to work for all these years, and just play the d@mn table! Don't overthink it. :roll:

Hopefully this help others.
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Re: Magnetic Platter bearing replacement - Sapphire and Si3N

Postby Votan » Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:29 am

Dear Tony,
I understand and share your initial hesitations, but I also greatly appreciate taking the courage to honesty describe your adventure. And I'm really glad that finally everything went fine, but also in making all of us wiser.
But isn't that the deepest and most meaningful reason for having this forum running? Sharing our experiences, positive or negative, from using, repairing, modifying and improving our devices or even exploring their limits? And if this comforts you, most of these experiences (speaking of mine’s) have been gained from similar, (and / or worse than your own) nightmarish and bloody walks through the (more or less familiar to most) path to hell.
For this reason I am (and sometimes been a bit annoyingly) persistent about the need for updating the forum by some who, while at first desperately seeking advice and support for their problem, after receiving a bunch of them from a lot of forum members, they just disappearing, without any information on the cause of their problem and if, and how they finally resolved it, as well as of the usefulness or not of our advices and support, which could enrich the forum’s relevant database, experiences and support effectiveness. Michael.
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Re: Magnetic Platter bearing replacement - Sapphire and Si3N

Postby izk » Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:11 pm

Ok Modifications done yesterday! All went smoothly after having read this topic completely. One thing I did notice, on my Avenger Reference (serial # 57--I think), the bearing ball size for both ends of the mag platter bearing shaft is the same as the rim drive's and the thrust plates are the same diameter as well...

Today I notice much lower noise floor, more low-level detail, more fluidity and strangely, more lower frequencies control. Quite happy I spent the time doing it. Thanks everyone!
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> Merrill Audio Christine preamp > Merrill Audio Element 116 amps > Acoustic Zen Crescendo speakers & cables
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Re: Magnetic Platter bearing replacement - Sapphire and Si3N

Postby Votan » Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:51 am

Hi izk,
Thank you for the very informative and helpful feedback, at the heart of the sonic result of the mod. Your relevant experience of mod's behavior after a few hundred, or thousands of hours, will be equally or even more useful and appreciated.
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