Speaker cone/driver movement...?

Re: Speaker cone/driver movement...?

Postby VinBob » Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:28 pm

JimTimP wrote:At this point, what do you have to lose? I do need some Anti-Skate on my arm at 45 RPM. But at 33 1/3, I can get away without it. These setting were realized after the installation of the 2nd pivot. Plus it does make adjusting azimuth much easier and consistent.


Thanks mate - The Dual pivot install is one of my projects for the holidays! ;)

Cheers,
Vin.
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Re: Speaker cone/driver movement...?

Postby VinBob » Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:44 pm

Hi All,

Just had to share this - So I thought I would try the Bearing Rumble and Table Isolation test track on the Ultimate Analog Test LP (Track 6 - Side 2) and sure enough, no audio playing of course but I can totally see the bottom two drivers pumping on the left channel with very tiny movement if at all, on the right channel.

Do I potentially have some other issue going on with my Prime TT in general? Also, why the movement on the left channel and not the right? I swapped the cables at the junction box on the table and sure enough, the movement of the speaker is now on the right channel - so definitely looks to be something generated from the Prime turntable - Just doesn't make a whole lot of sense... :?

Cheers,
Vin.
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Re: Speaker cone/driver movement...?

Postby Brf » Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:55 pm

VinBob wrote:Hi All,

Just had to share this - So I thought I would try the Bearing Rumble and Table Isolation test track on the Ultimate Analog Test LP (Track 6 - Side 2) and sure enough, no audio playing of course but I can totally see the bottom two drivers pumping on the left channel with very tiny movement if at all, on the right channel.

Do I potentially have some other issue going on with my Prime TT in general? Also, why the movement on the left channel and not the right? I swapped the cables at the junction box on the table and sure enough, the movement of the speaker is now on the right channel - so definitely looks to be something generated from the Prime turntable - Just doesn't make a whole lot of sense... :?

Cheers,
Vin.

Try more anti-skate
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Re: Speaker cone/driver movement...?

Postby VinBob » Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:49 pm

Brf wrote:
VinBob wrote:Hi All,

Just had to share this - So I thought I would try the Bearing Rumble and Table Isolation test track on the Ultimate Analog Test LP (Track 6 - Side 2) and sure enough, no audio playing of course but I can totally see the bottom two drivers pumping on the left channel with very tiny movement if at all, on the right channel.

Do I potentially have some other issue going on with my Prime TT in general? Also, why the movement on the left channel and not the right? I swapped the cables at the junction box on the table and sure enough, the movement of the speaker is now on the right channel - so definitely looks to be something generated from the Prime turntable - Just doesn't make a whole lot of sense... :?

Cheers,
Vin.

Try more anti-skate


Tried and I think its a touch better but still seeing more on the left channel with 4 donuts placed at the end of the arm - I don't have any donuts to add and I can't believe I would need this much A/S on my arm...???

Another interesting thing, is when I raise the arm by touching the arm lifter, I hear a pop come through the speakers...I guess this may be due to static or I need some better grounding somewhere, but it never seems to end... :(
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Re: Speaker cone/driver movement...?

Postby JimTimP » Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:53 pm

Some of us have been adding small brass washers between donuts to increase AS. Also, make sure your monofilament line is at or near the bottom of the arm it connects to. This changes the ratio to increase the weight of the donuts.

Not sure if anyone has mention to check to see if the turntable is level. Check it at the platter and not the plinth.
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Re: Speaker cone/driver movement...?

Postby VinBob » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:02 pm

JimTimP wrote:Some of us have been adding small brass washers between donuts to increase AS. Also, make sure your monofilament line is at or near the bottom of the arm it connects to. This changes the ratio to increase the weight of the donuts.

Not sure if anyone has mention to check to see if the turntable is level. Check it at the platter and not the plinth.


Thanks JimTimP. Yes, I have the monofilament at the bottom (by the round post) in-between a couple of donuts to keep it locked in. I have checked both the plinth and platter in multiple areas and the bubble is in the middle hole of of the level - so I should be good there...

Are you using additional washers for your Lyra Delos setup?

Cheers,
Vin.
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Re: Speaker cone/driver movement...?

Postby Bloodflame666 » Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:12 am

I used to have this problem with a pair of ported speakers. My woofers would pump in and out but only while playing vinyl. The louder I played the more they would pump. I learned that a lot of things caused this to happen but it was mainly what surface I had my table set on, where it was placed in association to my speakers and the condition of the record I was playing. More warps. More movement. Anyway, when I changed speakers to a sealed design the woofer pumping was basically eliminated but the real cure was a sturdy support platform for my table and the use of crossovers. When I got my p5 preamp it included a great crossover section and since I use a subwoofer as well, it’s important to balance the speakers and the sub so they blend in together. By doing this, you will eliminate the subsonic frequencies that your speakers are trying to reproduce which is causing the woofer movement. It’s a win win situation for you. If you don’t have a crossover feature then I would suggest using the subsonic filter. I’m willing to bet it will take care of the movements. It won’t effect your sound either as the filter is most likely set to kill stuff under 20 hz. Give it a shot
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Re: Speaker cone/driver movement...?

Postby VinBob » Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:06 pm

Bloodflame666 wrote:I used to have this problem with a pair of ported speakers. My woofers would pump in and out but only while playing vinyl. The louder I played the more they would pump. I learned that a lot of things caused this to happen but it was mainly what surface I had my table set on, where it was placed in association to my speakers and the condition of the record I was playing. More warps. More movement. Anyway, when I changed speakers to a sealed design the woofer pumping was basically eliminated but the real cure was a sturdy support platform for my table and the use of crossovers. When I got my p5 preamp it included a great crossover section and since I use a subwoofer as well, it’s important to balance the speakers and the sub so they blend in together. By doing this, you will eliminate the subsonic frequencies that your speakers are trying to reproduce which is causing the woofer movement. It’s a win win situation for you. If you don’t have a crossover feature then I would suggest using the subsonic filter. I’m willing to bet it will take care of the movements. It won’t effect your sound either as the filter is most likely set to kill stuff under 20 hz. Give it a shot


Thanks for the feedback mate. I am going to be trying a few other things over the holidays to see if I can eliminate my speaker cone movement given some great feedback from you all before I turn to the subsonic filter. I believe I have my subwoofer balanced with the speakers I am using and have it set to the correct phase level for my Bowers CM8's, so I don't think that should be the issue and when I spoke to SVS regarding my sub, they didn't seem to think that it would introduce the speaker cone movement with my B&W's.

Things I still need to try are as follows:

1) Add a heavier 180g or 200g counterweight to see if that reduces enough mass on the tonearm
2) Add a second shelf under my Segue ISO using the Rollerblock Jr's to add more isolation
3) Add the Dual Pivot Point
4) Move the Turntable and rack a further 3-6" away from the wall - I currently have about 5-6" space there right now
5) And finally if all of the above fail me... admit defeat and go with the subsonic filter on my Moon 310LP

As for seeing more movement on the left channel, that seems to be related to the turntable in some fashion as when I swap the RCA cables on the junction box, the speaker driver movement then becomes more visible in the right channel. I will have a look at A/S and Azimuth again over the holidays and see if I can make some improvements there, although this may possibly be solved via option # 3 above...

Cheers,
Vin.
VPI Prime | VAS Nova Special 0.4mV | Phoenix Engineering Eagle & Roadrunner | Sutherland 20/20 | Bryston BP-26/MPS-2 & 4B Cubed | Focal 826W Chorus V LE | SVS SB-1000 | Naim DAC-V1 | Rega Apollo-R
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Re: Speaker cone/driver movement...?

Postby audiom3 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:38 pm

VinBob wrote:
Bloodflame666 wrote:I used to have this problem with a pair of ported speakers. My woofers would pump in and out but only while playing vinyl. The louder I played the more they would pump. I learned that a lot of things caused this to happen but it was mainly what surface I had my table set on, where it was placed in association to my speakers and the condition of the record I was playing. More warps. More movement. Anyway, when I changed speakers to a sealed design the woofer pumping was basically eliminated but the real cure was a sturdy support platform for my table and the use of crossovers. When I got my p5 preamp it included a great crossover section and since I use a subwoofer as well, it’s important to balance the speakers and the sub so they blend in together. By doing this, you will eliminate the subsonic frequencies that your speakers are trying to reproduce which is causing the woofer movement. It’s a win win situation for you. If you don’t have a crossover feature then I would suggest using the subsonic filter. I’m willing to bet it will take care of the movements. It won’t effect your sound either as the filter is most likely set to kill stuff under 20 hz. Give it a shot


Thanks for the feedback mate. I am going to be trying a few other things over the holidays to see if I can eliminate my speaker cone movement given some great feedback from you all before I turn to the subsonic filter. I believe I have my subwoofer balanced with the speakers I am using and have it set to the correct phase level for my Bowers CM8's, so I don't think that should be the issue and when I spoke to SVS regarding my sub, they didn't seem to think that it would introduce the speaker cone movement with my B&W's.

Things I still need to try are as follows:

1) Add a heavier 180g or 200g counterweight to see if that reduces enough mass on the tonearm
2) Add a second shelf under my Segue ISO using the Rollerblock Jr's to add more isolation
3) Add the Dual Pivot Point
4) Move the Turntable and rack a further 3-6" away from the wall - I currently have about 5-6" space there right now
5) And finally if all of the above fail me... admit defeat and go with the subsonic filter on my Moon 310LP

As for seeing more movement on the left channel, that seems to be related to the turntable in some fashion as when I swap the RCA cables on the junction box, the speaker driver movement then becomes more visible in the right channel. I will have a look at A/S and Azimuth again over the holidays and see if I can make some improvements there, although this may possibly be solved via option # 3 above...

Cheers,
Vin.

That's a good idea. Since you've tried maximum A/S, I would next take a good, hard look at azimuth. Maybe your cart is leaning slightly toward the outside of the record?
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Re: Speaker cone/driver movement...?

Postby VinBob » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:05 pm

audiom3 wrote:
VinBob wrote:
Bloodflame666 wrote:I used to have this problem with a pair of ported speakers. My woofers would pump in and out but only while playing vinyl. The louder I played the more they would pump. I learned that a lot of things caused this to happen but it was mainly what surface I had my table set on, where it was placed in association to my speakers and the condition of the record I was playing. More warps. More movement. Anyway, when I changed speakers to a sealed design the woofer pumping was basically eliminated but the real cure was a sturdy support platform for my table and the use of crossovers. When I got my p5 preamp it included a great crossover section and since I use a subwoofer as well, it’s important to balance the speakers and the sub so they blend in together. By doing this, you will eliminate the subsonic frequencies that your speakers are trying to reproduce which is causing the woofer movement. It’s a win win situation for you. If you don’t have a crossover feature then I would suggest using the subsonic filter. I’m willing to bet it will take care of the movements. It won’t effect your sound either as the filter is most likely set to kill stuff under 20 hz. Give it a shot


Thanks for the feedback mate. I am going to be trying a few other things over the holidays to see if I can eliminate my speaker cone movement given some great feedback from you all before I turn to the subsonic filter. I believe I have my subwoofer balanced with the speakers I am using and have it set to the correct phase level for my Bowers CM8's, so I don't think that should be the issue and when I spoke to SVS regarding my sub, they didn't seem to think that it would introduce the speaker cone movement with my B&W's.

Things I still need to try are as follows:

1) Add a heavier 180g or 200g counterweight to see if that reduces enough mass on the tonearm
2) Add a second shelf under my Segue ISO using the Rollerblock Jr's to add more isolation
3) Add the Dual Pivot Point
4) Move the Turntable and rack a further 3-6" away from the wall - I currently have about 5-6" space there right now
5) And finally if all of the above fail me... admit defeat and go with the subsonic filter on my Moon 310LP

As for seeing more movement on the left channel, that seems to be related to the turntable in some fashion as when I swap the RCA cables on the junction box, the speaker driver movement then becomes more visible in the right channel. I will have a look at A/S and Azimuth again over the holidays and see if I can make some improvements there, although this may possibly be solved via option # 3 above...

Cheers,
Vin.

That's a good idea. Since you've tried maximum A/S, I would next take a good, hard look at azimuth. Maybe your cart is leaning slightly toward the outside of the record?


Thanks and will re-check things again - I think I may need to add more A/S which I will try with washers as opposed to the rubber donuts that VPI provide, but I would have thought that the 3-4 donuts would be more than enough as apparently, the Lyra Delos doesn't need much anti-skating...

Cheers,
Vin.
VPI Prime | VAS Nova Special 0.4mV | Phoenix Engineering Eagle & Roadrunner | Sutherland 20/20 | Bryston BP-26/MPS-2 & 4B Cubed | Focal 826W Chorus V LE | SVS SB-1000 | Naim DAC-V1 | Rega Apollo-R
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