Prime antiskate confusion

Re: Prime antiskate confusion

Postby Brf » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:16 am

Stringreen wrote:Robes....I've posted this before.....I don't use any antiskating at all, and I don't use use it because my system sounds best with none. I do believe there is such thing as skating...but the force varies with the shape of the stylus, the loudness level at each point through the record side (constantly changing), the amount of vinyl traveling under the stylus (constantly changing from the outside to the inside of the record), the vtf of the stylus, the azimuth adjustment of the stylus, and some more variables that go on and on. Being so variable, one setting (1,2,3 donuts) will be just as precise as any adjustment. The fact is that such adjustment - any adjustment will be wrong for the whole of the record side. Instead of dancing on the head of the pin....try using no a/s at all....you can always return to your previous adjustment... Just flip over the a/s device so that it doesn't tug on the fishing line. If you listen carefully, and your cartridge is set up well, the difference is clearly there.


I agree that skating forces varies as the stylus traces the album, no argument here as this fact is well established in physics.

The goal or objective of a properly executed anti-skate is to apply an “average” counter acting force along the entire album, therefore, on average you will have an equal offsetting skating force and in those instances where the skating force is a plus/minus from the applied average, the variance and magnitude is minimized. With no anti-skating force applied, you are guaranteed 100% across the entire album to never having the correct offsetting anti-skating.

That’s the technical argument for anti-skate, but the final arbitrator should be your ears and personal preference.
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Re: Prime antiskate confusion

Postby Brf » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:02 am

Robes wrote: Without quoting much of the first post in that thread and referring to it & the figure: 1) An explanation of how the 3rd law is satisfied is made of both offset and no offset tone arms. That said, there has been an equal and opposite force applied to an offset headshell but not in the same way as a “no offset headshells” equal & opposite force is applied. Both offset and non offset arms are under the same laws, both have achieved equal & opposite forces, therefore both are acting the same within the groove during record play, is this then not the case?

No, this is not the case. Perhaps I can help you visualize the effects of skating force.

Think of a door as tonearm. The hinge is the pivot point and the door handle is the headshell. An elastic is attached to the door handle and stretched away from the door (this represents the pulling motion on the stylus caused by the groove friction). If the elastic is in line with the door handle and the hinge, the door will remain stationary. This is exactly the same as a no-offset headshell, as the force created by the elastic is in a direct line with the hinge and is completely offset.

Now if you move the door so that the elastic is no longer in direct line with the door handle and hinge, the door will attempt to move towards the direction of the offset. This is exactly what is happening with an offset headshell, as the arm is trying to rotate towards the spindle.

Robes wrote:
I now see why the VPI video shows to set the anti-skate outward and Lederman says set it inward, it’s because they see these other forces acting in different directions. So, is there not a consensus as to which direction to apply the anti-skate force or is it TT, cartridge, etc. specific?

Peter adjusts anti-skate in the run out dead wax near the record label. In this area of the record, skating forces are at their greatest, therefore, if you adjust your anti-skate for a neutral of greater than neutral offset, then the skating force applied will be too much near the beginning of the record. It’s an average sum objective.
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Re: Prime antiskate confusion

Postby Stringreen » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:50 am

BRF - You never have the correct force anyway
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Re: Prime antiskate confusion

Postby MikeS » Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:28 pm

So to get the correct anti-skate I get a blank side of an LP lower the cartridge down in the center of the LP and I should have very little movement ether way?
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Re: Prime antiskate confusion

Postby Brf » Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:39 pm

MikeS wrote:So to get the correct anti-skate I get a blank side of an LP lower the cartridge down in the center of the LP and I should have very little movement ether way?


Correct.
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Re: Prime antiskate confusion

Postby Brf » Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:40 pm

Stringreen wrote:BRF - You never have the correct force anyway


Please re-read my post. All tonearms that employ anti-skate are designed to achieve an average value.

Vertical tracking force, stylus rake angle, azimuth are all average values; so why can’t anti-skate be an average value?

One thing is for certain, the application of anti-skate will help minimize asymmetric wear of styli and groove wear
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Re: Prime antiskate confusion

Postby VinBob » Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:49 pm

Brf wrote:
MikeS wrote:So to get the correct anti-skate I get a blank side of an LP lower the cartridge down in the center of the LP and I should have very little movement ether way?


Correct.


For some odd reason, the blank side of an LP didn’t work for me even with all four donuts applied :?
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Re: Prime antiskate confusion

Postby Brf » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:00 pm

VinBob wrote:
Brf wrote:
MikeS wrote:So to get the correct anti-skate I get a blank side of an LP lower the cartridge down in the center of the LP and I should have very little movement ether way?


Correct.


For some odd reason, the blank side of an LP didn’t work for me even with all four donuts applied :?


check your tonearm wire
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Re: Prime antiskate confusion

Postby VinBob » Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:48 pm

Pretty sure I have the tonearm wire relaxed with no twist but will check again this weekend when I am back home.

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Re: Prime antiskate confusion

Postby thegage » Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:27 pm

VinBob wrote:
Brf wrote:For some odd reason, the blank side of an LP didn’t work for me even with all four donuts applied :?

Not necessarily odd. When I use the blank area on the Cardas test disc I need four donuts and a brass washer (or maybe two) to achieve decent AS; when I use the Soundsmith method I don't need the washer.

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