Prime antiskate confusion

Re: Prime antiskate confusion

Postby JimTimP » Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:45 pm

All this is great information and the references to Peter Ledermann and SoundSmith carts are intriguing. I do have a SS cart. Used with the VPI 10-3DR arm on the Prime Sig with the Dual Pivot, I do not need any antiskate. Regardless of means used. Whether Peter Ledermann's see if it tracks in or out on the leadout portion (it stays where I put it until the leadout catches the stylus), or the 'Cantilever Deflection' method cited by several here (it does not deflect).

The cart has over 80 hours on it. It is well aligned. VTF is at 1.5 Grams (recommended is 1.3 to 1.6). Top of the cart is parallel side to side and front to back. Minor tweaking of the Azimuth (side to side) to eliminate sibilance and center the singer when the singer should be centered. I notice no sonic difference with or without the AS applied, other than I now see cantilever deflection (and outward drift while cueing a record). I was also using the topmost notch for AS (minimal). I also have a minimal amount of weight to keep the 2nd pivot down and contacting the slide plate.

When using the fourth side of the Dianne Krall album, I get a single groove cut into the surface. No skating whatsoever.

So, either I'm very lucky or some god is shining upon me. Either way, this is what I got.
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Re: Prime antiskate confusion

Postby oldskooldude » Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:50 pm

WERA689 wrote:I live about 50 miles from you, up in Canton. I'm just curious who you're referring to here.


Wolfsong Audio in Dawsonville, on beautiful Lake Lanier. He's on that interweb thing.
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Re: Prime antiskate confusion

Postby oldskooldude » Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:04 pm

JimTimP wrote: I do have a SS cart. Used with the VPI 10-3DR arm on the Prime Sig with the Dual Pivot, I do not need any antiskate.


So you no longer have a Uni-pivot. That changes the ball game. Peter's instructions refer to Uni-pivot. I can see that by changing the pivot would change the skate effect. If it does what you say it does, it sounds like you are OK. Maybe Brf could weigh in on this, he has more knowledge on the dual pivot and anti-skate.

Did you notice a nice improvement when you installed the dual pivot?
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Re: Prime antiskate confusion

Postby WERA689 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:04 pm

oldskooldude wrote:
WERA689 wrote:I live about 50 miles from you, up in Canton. I'm just curious who you're referring to here.


Wolfsong Audio in Dawsonville, on beautiful Lake Lanier. He's on that interweb thing.


Indeed. I know Mike. I bought some stuff from him while he was at Audio Alternative, and went to his open house last year. When I'm ready for a new cartridge, he's tops on my list!
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Re: Prime antiskate confusion

Postby oldskooldude » Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:18 pm

Yes, sir. He is one of the good guys.
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Re: Prime antiskate confusion

Postby Brf » Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:09 am

oldskooldude wrote:
JimTimP wrote: I do have a SS cart. Used with the VPI 10-3DR arm on the Prime Sig with the Dual Pivot, I do not need any antiskate.


So you no longer have a Uni-pivot. That changes the ball game. Peter's instructions refer to Uni-pivot. I can see that by changing the pivot would change the skate effect. If it does what you say it does, it sounds like you are OK. Maybe Brf could weigh in on this, he has more knowledge on the dual pivot and anti-skate.

Did you notice a nice improvement when you installed the dual pivot?


If you have a pivoted tonearm, with over-hang and a offset headshell (like most modern day pivoted tonearms), the arm will be subject to skating forces regardless of the bearing type (uni-pivot, uni-pivot with a second pivot, fixed/captive/gimbals bearing etc). This is a simple fact based in the laws of physics and is not in dispute.

What is subjective is whether or not the use of a counter force (anti-skate) provides an audible improvement. There appears to be no consensus as to the correct answer. HW does not use AS and Peter L does. Neither is correct or wrong because personal listening bias and dislikes becomes the arbitrator of choice.

With respect to the dual point, there exists theoretical reasons why it should improve the performance of the tonearm which have been confirmed by feedback of actual users.

My personal advice, since most VPI arms now come with the mechanical AS device, play with it and determine for yourself. It's a free experiment. The dual pivot retails for $150, therefore, by analog standards, that is an inexpensive price of admission for an opportunity for a significant sonic improvement. Give it a try to determine for yourself.
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Re: Prime antiskate confusion

Postby JimTimP » Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:05 am

oldskooldude wrote:
JimTimP wrote: I do have a SS cart. Used with the VPI 10-3DR arm on the Prime Sig with the Dual Pivot, I do not need any antiskate.


So you no longer have a Uni-pivot. That changes the ball game. Peter's instructions refer to Uni-pivot. I can see that by changing the pivot would change the skate effect. If it does what you say it does, it sounds like you are OK. Maybe Brf could weigh in on this, he has more knowledge on the dual pivot and anti-skate.

Did you notice a nice improvement when you installed the dual pivot?


Peter actually recommends Anti-Skate regardless of tonearm pivot system. Infact, he never mentions it. Gimbals, Uni, Dual, whatever. Peter does not differentiate.

Point of my post was; generalized information is good, but does not apply in all cases.
Teac X-2000R, Otari MX-5050 BIII-2, Manley Stingray II Amp, Yaqin SD-32A CD Player, Zestos Andros PS 1 Phono Preamp, VPI Prime Sig, ADS & 16.5, Soundsmith Voice & Lyra Delos on Separate Arms, Zaph ZRT 2.5 Spkr, Homemade 10" Subs, JTP Cables
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Re: Prime antiskate confusion

Postby oldskooldude » Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:15 pm

I did not say that you do not need Anti-Skate. If you're happy, go with it. I just have raised the issue of stylus wear, that's all. Happy listening!
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Re: Prime antiskate confusion

Postby oldskooldude » Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:13 pm

JimTimP, since you adjust the drop weight to lean the tone arm to the left so it rests more on the second pivot, is it possible that there is too much pressure being applied? This would have to be very little, but enough to mitigate the skate that is generated by the stylus. If you haven't already tried, back off the set screw a touch and see if that changes skate. Just a thought, because I want to use one but want to avoid any pit falls.
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Re: Prime antiskate confusion

Postby Brf » Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:26 pm

oldskooldude wrote:JimTimP, since you adjust the drop weight to lean the tone arm to the left so it rests more on the second pivot, is it possible that there is too much pressure being applied? This would have to be very little, but enough to mitigate the skate that is generated by the stylus. If you haven't already tried, back off the set screw a touch and see if that changes skate. Just a thought, because I want to use one but want to avoid any pit falls.


Use the adjustable azimuth side weights to load the dual pivot point. It allows for a more precise adjustment.
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