Advice needed for setting up my Cartridge...

Re: Advice needed for setting up my Cartridge...

Postby Dorian » Sat Aug 26, 2017 11:24 pm

Vin

Without meaning to sound dismissive or condescending, you appear to be spending a great deal of time trying to get your setup 'theoretically' correct without actually listening to how it sounds. On top of that the Foz, as I have said previously, IMHO is inaccurate and definitely frustrating. Ditch the Foz, or use it and adjust by ear. Or get Adjust+ which I think you will love, as it is accurate and provides repeatable results.
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Re: Advice needed for setting up my Cartridge...

Postby VinBob » Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:32 am

Thanks for the feedback gents...

It does appear that the Foz isn't accurate for use but WHY?!?! - How can they sell an item like this and not be fit for use in setting Azimuth which after all, is what it was designed to do?!

So when purchasing this, one simply is throwing $300 down the drain?! - There has to be some logical explanation to this all. I wanted to use something to get me in the ballpark where I had something pretty close (maybe off by 1-2 tickmarks and the channel balance not lightly glowing in any particular channel) and then adjust by ear as everyone seems to recommend, although I am not entirely sure what I am supposed to be listening for, which is why I had purchased such a tool in the first place, to setup with expected results and then just leave it to play vinyl...

I am close to throwing in the towel with the Fozgometer as it clearly isn't providing the expected results, or I have simply been unlucky with both of my cartridges. I am still going to reach out to Musical Surroundings one more time on the Foz and have a chat with the dealer on the cartridge to get some further info and advice on next steps but again, do appreciate everyone's input here...

Cheers,
Vin.
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Re: Advice needed for setting up my Cartridge...

Postby babybird » Sun Aug 27, 2017 10:33 am

Hmm, I'm going to be the odd many out on this. I have the Foz, use it and have found it to work perfectly or as near as can be expected. There are many professional reviewers who would agree including but not limited to the developer of the Feickert software. So either they are flat out lying which I doubt or the Fozgometer can work. For me it works. Did I get it right the first time? No, like any tool for any hobby or craft it takes time, practice and finesse.

Regarding channel balance, don't use the Foz to balance channels use it only for the channel separation capabilities. Its channel balance capabilities are nothing more than nice to know information but not testable material. I would also encourage all concerned parties to read thoroughly Peter Lederman's discussion on his website regarding the difficulty of building a perfect cartridge with perfect channel balance. The long and short of it is, its nearly impossible to do so regardless of cost. I'm inclined to believe him on this issue. It doesn't matter if you use his cartridges or not, there lots of very helpful information to glean for all cartridges.

To that allow me to also add, for what ever reason in my system even with digital playback I have a channel imbalance. I know this because I've taken full bandwidth pink noise measurements with my Radio Shack SPL meter. Why its there i don't know yet, maybe speakers, maybe room, perhaps my mono bloc amps or even my preamp, who knows but it is there. I mention this to encourage all parties to check this first because if you have a system level channel imbalance (that you were previously unaware of) it can potentially become exacerbated with your cartridge imbalance.

Hope this helps.
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Re: Advice needed for setting up my Cartridge...

Postby Brf » Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:53 am

babybird wrote:Hmm, I'm going to be the odd many out on this. I have the Foz, use it and have found it to work perfectly or as near as can be expected. .


+1 ...add me to your list
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Re: Advice needed for setting up my Cartridge...

Postby VinBob » Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:55 am

babybird wrote:Hmm, I'm going to be the odd many out on this. I have the Foz, use it and have found it to work perfectly or as near as can be expected. There are many professional reviewers who would agree including but not limited to the developer of the Feickert software. So either they are flat out lying which I doubt or the Fozgometer can work. For me it works. Did I get it right the first time? No, like any tool for any hobby or craft it takes time, practice and finesse.

Regarding channel balance, don't use the Foz to balance channels use it only for the channel separation capabilities. Its channel balance capabilities are nothing more than nice to know information but not testable material. I would also encourage all concerned parties to read thoroughly Peter Lederman's discussion on his website regarding the difficulty of building a perfect cartridge with perfect channel balance. The long and short of it is, its nearly impossible to do so regardless of cost. I'm inclined to believe him on this issue. It doesn't matter if you use his cartridges or not, there lots of very helpful information to glean for all cartridges.

To that allow me to also add, for what ever reason in my system even with digital playback I have a channel imbalance. I know this because I've taken full bandwidth pink noise measurements with my Radio Shack SPL meter. Why its there i don't know yet, maybe speakers, maybe room, perhaps my mono bloc amps or even my preamp, who knows but it is there. I mention this to encourage all parties to check this first because if you have a system level channel imbalance (that you were previously unaware of) it can potentially become exacerbated with your cartridge imbalance.

Hope this helps.


Thanks for the feedback. Do you have anti-skating applied when using the Foz for Azimuth setting? Would that affect things?

Cheers,
Vin.
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Re: Advice needed for setting up my Cartridge...

Postby VinBob » Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:04 pm

Brf wrote:
babybird wrote:Hmm, I'm going to be the odd many out on this. I have the Foz, use it and have found it to work perfectly or as near as can be expected. .


+1 ...add me to your list


Brf - Being the resident guru on these things and as we all value your opinion, any thoughts on my experience and other areas/things to try?

The Foz seems calibrated to the best of my knowledge - battery is good. Tried multiple test LPs - odd that one is giving me a slightly higher reading on the right channel (Hi-Fi news) - so there is no consistency across the different LPs - is it worth getting another test LP to further validate? I may send the Foz to have it checked out but based on the test tracks, it looks good...

I am going to try another set of RCA cables later this evening just for shits and giggles...

Thanks in advance...
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Re: Advice needed for setting up my Cartridge...

Postby jonathanb » Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:23 pm

Have you calibrated the Fozgometer using the files from the Musical Surroundings website? If not, you need to do so.

Btw, the best test record I've found for use with the Fozgometer is the Clearaudio Azimuth Optimizer Test Record. It has two complete sides of L and R alternating 30s 1000hz tracks (ten tracks per side.) It makes using the Fozgometer much easier.
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Re: Advice needed for setting up my Cartridge...

Postby babybird » Sun Aug 27, 2017 1:08 pm

@ VinBob, yes I definitely have my mechanical anti skating set before running the fozgometer. Not only does Peter Lederman recommend this but also the tech support guy at Musical Surroundings said to as well. Otherwise you throw the baby out with the bath water as the saying goes.

@ jonathanb, just an FYI both of the other test records also include L&R channel test tones, the one for Hifi News runs at 300 hz if I remember correctly, while the one for Acoustic Sounds is at 1Khz like your Clear Audio record. The results can vary slightly from the two aforementioned records, but the last time I checked it only seemed to be the absolute volume/gain rather than a noticeable difference from R&L channels.
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Re: Advice needed for setting up my Cartridge...

Postby VinBob » Sun Aug 27, 2017 6:55 pm

jonathanb wrote:Have you calibrated the Fozgometer using the files from the Musical Surroundings website? If not, you need to do so.

Btw, the best test record I've found for use with the Fozgometer is the Clearaudio Azimuth Optimizer Test Record. It has two complete sides of L and R alternating 30s 1000hz tracks (ten tracks per side.) It makes using the Fozgometer much easier.


Thanks for the feedback. Yes as mentioned earlier, I have calibrated the Fozgometer and getting identical readings for both Left and Right channels as well as zero for the channel balance mono track.

Funny you should mention the Clearaudio Test Record. I also used that test LP and found the Right channel to be way higher than the left by some good 4-5 tick marks!!! When I questioned Musical Surrounding on the use of that test LP, this is what I got:

Different test records may be cut at different levels, so some variation exists. The Clearaudio Azimuth optimizer record is cut hotter, so more variation in the readings can be expected. The Ultimate Analog Test LP is what we recommend using with the Fozgometer.

So I have stuck with the Analog Test LP which is what they recommend but to be honest, they all seem to be a waste of time...
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Re: Advice needed for setting up my Cartridge...

Postby VinBob » Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:00 pm

babybird wrote:@ VinBob, yes I definitely have my mechanical anti skating set before running the fozgometer. Not only does Peter Lederman recommend this but also the tech support guy at Musical Surroundings said to as well. Otherwise you throw the baby out with the bath water as the saying goes.

@ jonathanb, just an FYI both of the other test records also include L&R channel test tones, the one for Hifi News runs at 300 hz if I remember correctly, while the one for Acoustic Sounds is at 1Khz like your Clear Audio record. The results can vary slightly from the two aforementioned records, but the last time I checked it only seemed to be the absolute volume/gain rather than a noticeable difference from R&L channels.


Thanks Babybird. I'll try it with anti-skating next and see where that gets me. If that's the issue all along, then I'll be relieved but a little pissed off, as it would be nice to have put this in the instruction manual. Having said this, I am not holding my breath on this being the solution...
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