Need help trouble shooting 3D arm

Re: Need help trouble shooting 3D arm

Postby Gshepardbuster » Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:51 am

To adjust the lift arm you loosen the set screw by the lever with an Allen wrench.
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Re: Need help trouble shooting 3D arm

Postby MMMC » Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:52 am

Golear wrote:
audiom3 wrote:If I rotate the device as others have mentioned, it will pull the A/S device 'over the crown' and it'll fall backwards and thus, disengage. So that just doesn't work.


It's good that you moved the thread so that it is flush with the anti-skate hub, and used one O-ring. There will be minimal change in the angle that the thread makes to the horizontal plane, as the arm moves across the LP. And it precludes the upper arm from complicating things.

I think the body of the anti-skate device does need to be rotated as Mr Putty indicated. If it is in danger of going "over", then the thread is too short. Even if it doesn't go over, there'll be very low force on the thread. You can look at the pictures in the thread. On my turntable, it all works fine when the lower arm is at the 6 o'clock position, when the stylus is at the start of the LP. This sets a small amount of anti-skate force at the start, and this gradually increases as the tonearm goes across the LP.

And I'd add O-rings or O-rings and brass washers to the lower arm and move it, until the anti-skate works according to the SoundSmith's method. The SoundSmith does also stress that there should be no twist in the tonearm wire. If there's a twist, you may need to add or remove mass on the lower arm. The big advantage of my method is that it has just two adjustments: the amount of mass on the lower arm, and the position of that mass on the lower arm.

It's also true that you can't just listen to one LP, as it may be damaged. Better to play a wide range of LPs and listen for mistracking, sibilance, etc.


Gentlemen,

I don't want to play the role of "The Grinch who stole Christmas", considering the time being devoted to setting anti-skating, but I have not seriously concerned myself with other than the Harry old school anti-skating method of the twisted tonearm wire since I read this bit from Harry about what seems like a million years ago and I haven't worried since. I've owned an original Scout, an Aries I with 10 inch JMW, an Extended Aries with a 12 inch JMW, and my current HRX with a 12 inch 3DR.

......"Weisfeld tells this tale: "I was so excited in getting a working prototype of the arm that I forgot to hook up its anti-skate mechanism. And the arm sounded great. So when I noticed what I hadn't done, I hooked up, and the arm sounded worse. I could hardly believe my ears." He speculates that anti-skate devices, with their vibrating metal and twine, just provide another vehicle for the accumulation of unwanted resonances. He also argues that there is a touch of anti-skate, effect, because of the outward tension occasioned by some of the arm's wiring....."

Gentlmen and Ladies YMMV. At the time, approximately 2002, I owned a VPI Scout with only a 9 inch arm, but found it seemed to work very well even though initially thought the wire twist was effective only with the 10 and 12 inch unipivot arms.
I hope this post won't break the site with a flood of posts that will be positive I am advocating ruining their vinyl.

MMMC
One of the last HR-X production/ 3DR 12" arm/ ZYX Universe II LOMC with Copper wire/ RCM Sensor 2 phono preamp/ Silver Audio Appasionata IC/ Audio Sensibiity Statement Silver Phono V2 IC
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Re: Need help trouble shooting 3D arm

Postby Golear » Sat Dec 22, 2018 2:14 pm

Peter Ledermann, I believe, encourages use of the mechanical anti-skate. And VPI includes the mechanical anti-skate as original equipment. If you decide to use the mechanical anti-skate, you might want to read my post, as well as others' posts. But you're free to do whatever will work in your system.
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Re: Need help trouble shooting 3D arm

Postby MMMC » Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:17 pm

Golear wrote:Peter Ledermann, I believe, encourages use of the mechanical anti-skate. And VPI includes the mechanical anti-skate as original equipment. If you decide to use the mechanical anti-skate, you might want to read my post, as well as others' posts. But you're free to do whatever will work in your system.


Golear,
My apologies if my post appears to be a shot at your well laid out post. It was not my intent. It was truly meant in the vain of not obsessing on anti-skating, because your arm will perform quite well with much less effort. I also am not challenging Peter Ledermann. The attempt was to bring in some thought from years past, before the donuts were considered an essential part of the unipivot tonearm package. I did include a little "YMMV" to indicate each individual can decide which direction/path works best for them. The VPI anti-skating approach of the unipivot arms with the twisted wire was quite the debate for many years, and I assume Harry essentially decided if it removed potential customers objection to the unipivot tonearm, just give them what they need to feel comfortable. To Harry, I hope I am not putting words in your mouth, but it is merely my observation over the years of the anti-skate subject and the VPI unipivot arms. To this present day, there are still those who do not feel comfortable with a unipivot arm, but such is life. Fortunately for me, I did not have a preconceived anti skate view when I purchase my first VPI table, and easily adapted to the thoughts of the arm designer. I hope that cleans up, and clears up my remarks. I will keep my mouth shut now.

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One of the last HR-X production/ 3DR 12" arm/ ZYX Universe II LOMC with Copper wire/ RCM Sensor 2 phono preamp/ Silver Audio Appasionata IC/ Audio Sensibiity Statement Silver Phono V2 IC
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Re: Need help trouble shooting 3D arm

Postby Golear » Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:42 pm

My apologies if it seemed like I was upset. I did not take offense. And I totally agree, different approaches can work in different systems. The only way this remains a good forum is if we continue to exchange the widest range of opinions and information.
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Re: Need help trouble shooting 3D arm

Postby audiom3 » Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:52 pm

I got fed up after spending a good part of the day trying to figure out why my Kiseki Blue was distorting. So in my frustration, I un-installed it from the 3D arm and took a break. Came back a few hours later and installed my trusty old Benz Wood SL. NO distortion on the same tracks. Sooo, I'll email Herman and see if he can take a look at it. Pretty sure it's an internal problem and not a mis-tracking problem. Not expecting anything free as I knew it was a risk when I bought it over-seas. Just sucks I spent the good part of the year thinking my digital setup eclipsed my turntable setup... Hopefully my Benz diamond hangs in there as it has probably 1200-1400 hours on it now but it still sounds perfect. And for the record, no A/S engaged.
Classic w/ 3D arm & VTA Tower; Kiseki Blue N.S.; Benz Micro Wood SL; Sutherland 20/20 Phono Preamp
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Re: Need help trouble shooting 3D arm

Postby MMMC » Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:38 pm

audiom3 wrote:I got fed up after spending a good part of the day trying to figure out why my Kiseki Blue was distorting. So in my frustration, I un-installed it from the 3D arm and took a break. Came back a few hours later and installed my trusty old Benz Wood SL. NO distortion on the same tracks. Sooo, I'll email Herman and see if he can take a look at it. Pretty sure it's an internal problem and not a mis-tracking problem. Not expecting anything free as I knew it was a risk when I bought it over-seas. Just sucks I spent the good part of the year thinking my digital setup eclipsed my turntable setup... Hopefully my Benz diamond hangs in there as it has probably 1200-1400 hours on it now but it still sounds perfect. And for the record, no A/S engaged.


audiom3,
Very pleased you have a resolution with an alternative cartridge. Before you put the Kiseki Blue in the box to ship, may I suggest you re-install it without the AS just to be sure it was not the "AS" setup, and not the cartridge.

MMMC
One of the last HR-X production/ 3DR 12" arm/ ZYX Universe II LOMC with Copper wire/ RCM Sensor 2 phono preamp/ Silver Audio Appasionata IC/ Audio Sensibiity Statement Silver Phono V2 IC
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Re: Need help trouble shooting 3D arm

Postby audiom3 » Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:13 am

audiom3 wrote:I got fed up after spending a good part of the day trying to figure out why my Kiseki Blue was distorting. So in my frustration, I un-installed it from the 3D arm and took a break. Came back a few hours later and installed my trusty old Benz Wood SL. NO distortion on the same tracks. Sooo, I'll email Herman and see if he can take a look at it. Pretty sure it's an internal problem and not a mis-tracking problem. Not expecting anything free as I knew it was a risk when I bought it over-seas. Just sucks I spent the good part of the year thinking my digital setup eclipsed my turntable setup... Hopefully my Benz diamond hangs in there as it has probably 1200-1400 hours on it now but it still sounds perfect. And for the record, no A/S engaged.

I have already tried no A/S. I tried literally everything with the Blue (including loading it down). But the bottom line is things shouldn't 'break up' the way they were due to A/S. My Benz WoodS fails the A/S tests on side B of Hi-Fi setup record, yet sounds fantastic. Less sibilant than the Blue (which wasn't bad to begin with) and zero distortion near the end of the record. I added 1 donut to pass the first two A/S tracks on side A last night though. Otherwise it was failing those.
Classic w/ 3D arm & VTA Tower; Kiseki Blue N.S.; Benz Micro Wood SL; Sutherland 20/20 Phono Preamp
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