First impression of the Dual Pivot Kit

Re: First impression of the Dual Pivot Kit

Postby Mr_Putty » Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:19 pm

I installed my 2nd pivot last night. Here’s the Good the Bad, and the Ugly. In that order.
Construction looked great, impressive finish on all parts. All adjustment screws (2), fitted very tightly. Sound was improved on my modest system. Not earth shaking but overall better detail and less motor noise. Instrument clarity and separation improved. Vocal clarity improved as well. No Regrets about purchase. It must be set about right.
The not so good. The adhesive paper covering on the pad did not want to come off. I had to use a hair dryer on high to soften the grip of the attachment side of the paper and use a single edged razor blade to get it started for removal. I installed everything while the arm was in place. Probably NOT the best idea! I used a small pair of parallel players to hold the bracket while tightening the mounting screw. All went well until I needed to adjust the azimuth. I had set the counter weight pretty close to what was needed. But, the pivot bracket twisted off the arm while I adjusted azimuth... The screws were solidly held, so working them some loosened them enough to try again. Previously I found my tonearm wire was gradually lifting the pivot point near the inner record grooves (less pressure on the plate). So I needed to carefully estimate the pivot force required for the inner grooves. I manually set azimuth with the Prime provided tube resting on the tonearm. Finally, I adjusted the pivot point pressure with the round adjustment weights near the tonearm base. This procedure was tricky, requiring patience and minute counter weight adjusting, but it worked. I also found the best position for my base plate was further to the backside of tonearm (rotated more clockwise) than the instruction photo indicated. The final pivot pressure is just enough to keep the arm stable at the inner grooves. A high five to everyone who has one working!

EDIT: Other ways to remove the paper backing might be to grab it with duct tape, or super glue a small piece of plastic near an edge to get it started. Also, I forgot to mention I did not change my antiskate at all. I’m not sure if I will change it later. FWIW, My Ellington 65, horn presentations are sounding great.
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Re: First impression of the Dual Pivot Kit

Postby Jprod » Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:20 am

I have read through as many of the dual pivot posts as I could but I still have one question- is the counterintuitive helpful with the dual pivot kit or a waste of money ?
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Re: First impression of the Dual Pivot Kit

Postby Letsmakeadeal » Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:12 am

Jprod wrote:I have read through as many of the dual pivot posts as I could but I still have one question- is the counterintuitive helpful with the dual pivot kit or a waste of money ?


It is a waste of money IMHO when using the dual pivot. I had two of them on my 3DRs before the dual pivot became available. I removed them. You do Not need them at all....That said, this has been discussed here before. You will get a few folks that say it is still useful. It certainly does not hurt anything and can be used to create the load on the second pivot but it is not required in any way. So my recommendation is go buy yourself a couple of awesome LPs instead.
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Re: First impression of the Dual Pivot Kit

Postby Jprod » Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:34 am

Thanks. I did read the posts where some still used d it so I was confused as to the necessity. I assumed those posters had the CI before they bought the dual pivot. I don’t have either
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Re: First impression of the Dual Pivot Kit

Postby Mr_Putty » Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:24 pm

Question about the 2nd pivot plate: I have redone my setup, the 2nd pivot bracket was coming loose and did not want to stay put. I think the lower extension arm should be longer. Of course that would make production more difficult. So, I added some CA to mine (lower foot only) after removing the arm and remounting the bracket. I also noticed a few light scratches starting on the plate and could hear rubbing when I moved the TT arm. I did not notice any rubbing when it was first installed. The post alignment is fine. A lubricant seems like a good idea to me. I am trying a micro fine PTFE powder. Anyone else noticed this scraping noise? I don’t think the pressure is excessive and it is working as music now has more detail for sure.
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Re: First impression of the Dual Pivot Kit

Postby Brf » Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:32 pm

Mr_Putty wrote:Question about the 2nd pivot plate: I have redone my setup, the 2nd pivot bracket was coming loose and did not want to stay put. I think the lower extension arm should be longer. Of course that would make production more difficult. So, I added some CA to mine (lower foot only) after removing the arm and remounting the bracket. I also noticed a few light scratches starting on the plate and could hear rubbing when I moved the TT arm. I did not notice any rubbing when it was first installed. The post alignment is fine. A lubricant seems like a good idea to me. I am trying a micro fine PTFE powder. Anyone else noticed this scraping noise? I don’t think the pressure is excessive and it is working as music now has more detail for sure.


Please see the following link http://vpiforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=10739&p=46801#p46801
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Re: First impression of the Dual Pivot Kit

Postby Wax » Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:40 pm

Just out of curiosity anyone have a few pics of the dual pivot installed on an older Scout..
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Re: First impression of the Dual Pivot Kit

Postby Stringreen » Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:07 am

The CounterIntuitive makes the arm easier to adjust that rear counterweight's center of gravity and vtf. Looking at the cartridge directly in a front view, the arm should lean toward the left...then adjust the screw on the (screw down) the 2nd pivot for proper azimuth....use the Fozgometer....
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Re: First impression of the Dual Pivot Kit

Postby Votan » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:06 pm

I have been watched very carefully all your posts in this thread concerning Dual Pivot Issue. It is a fact that unipivots in their microcosm tent to be slightly unstable during cartridge’s tracking, so unipivot tonearms manufacturers try to eliminate this with this or that way.
Having a mechanical engineering degree, as well 30 years experience in setting up TTs, as well living with the VPI V-HR/JMW 12,5 Memorial for some 16 years, I would tempt to make some remarks concerning the geometry, as well the mechanics of this very VPI Dual Pivot effort, that makes me hesitating in join the Dual Pivot camp. Namely:
1. Let’s we call Pivot No 1 the central (factory) pivot point and Pivot No 2 the under discussion additional second pivot point.
2. There is only one (conceivable) plane-level (let’s call it Plane X, or Pivot Plane) which passes through the Pivot No 1 and at the same time is perpendicular to the longitudinal axis of the armwand.
3. Because of the position of the two side azimuth weights (whose common axis normally is as well in the Plane X), Pivot No 2 is forced to be placed just behind the (left hand) side weight, a position that is perforce outside the above conceivable Plane X and behind it! And this creates a lot of issues! Namely:
4. That means that looking from the (right of the TT) side view of the tonearm-cartridge combo at the moment that the cantilever-needle is on the groove of LP and the Pivot 2 is as well touching its plate, we can see the Pivot No 2 been behind the Pivot No 1. Which means that, when we make Pivot No 2 to be in touch to its plate, it creates a torque that affects mainly the VTF (as well VTA and azimuth), not to mention that obstructs the arm in moving freely upwards in its vertical movements!! Yes, I know Pivot No 2 it’s only slightly behind from the Plane X, but all we know that in the microcosm of the arm-cartridge, the slightest changes in VTA, or SRA, or VTF, or azimuth lead in huge sound alterations! Keep that in mind for all the following!
5. First of all, if we want to adjust Pivot No 2 to be exactly just in contact to its plate (no more, no less), this must be done at the moment that the needle-cantilever are already in the groove of LP, under the condition that in the same time we already have fix the correct azimuth, VTA (with the arm parallel to the platter), and VTF!!
What that means? If, before the Dual Pivot upgrade, the procedure of "adjusting the counterweight to a specific VTF (if you were lucky enough, after a million tiny back and forth movements), and adjusting counterweight again to adjust azimuth, which then messes up the VTF...." was a circular path to hell, then what should be this nightmare when the Dual Pivot issue comes into the equation, creating its longitudinal torque at the moment that it touches its plate? Not to mention that from the moment that Pivot No 2 would be just in contact to its plate, the slightest unintentional additional screwing should change uncontrollably the VTF, VTA and Azimuth.
6. But let’s say that some time later this nightmare ends successfully, everything is precisely adjusted with the Pivot No 2 just in touch to its plate and we spin the platter in order to listen LPs. Then the most problematic issue concerning the degraded sound behavior of the cartridge, as well the possibility of its damage is when it should be asked to track in not flat LPs, a not at all rare situation when LPs are not brand new or they are not flat for some other reason!
In such cases cartridge and tonearm should be totally free in moving up and down while playing a record. But even if swinging amplitude is around +/- 0.5 mm high, the Pivot No 2, been already in contact to its plate behind the Pivot No 1, should oppose the need of the arm to move up freely! This is an additional (and more or less unbearable) opposition to the free movement of the arm, because it has always (as all arms in the world) to deal with its moment of inertia (namely the laziness of the arm to move lightning fast due to weights-cartridge and screws, counterweight, arm mass, arm cables-on it and their distance from pivot).
All those mean that the arm could not be able to catch up with LP swing. This creates strain to the cantilever causing instant VTF, VTA, SRA and azimuth changes which lead to sound distortions that are subjectively heard as detonation, as well, in extreme cases (very warped LPs) to damage the cantilever’s suspension.
One final note: I think that most of the above described issues could be minimized or eliminated if VPI could find a way to put the above Pivot No 2 into Plane X, (see above paragraph 2, namely in the conceivable plane-level which passes through the Pivot No 1 and at the same time is perpendicular to the longitudinal axis of the armwand).
Or, even better, if VPI could put a second Pivot No 2, symmetrically to (the above mentioned) first Pivot No 2 , in the place where now is the right side azimuth weight, under the condition that both side pivots should be indispensably into the Plane X, making the tonearm a (Kuzma or Reed like) ..3Point pivot. This could make the set up much easier, as well could minimize (yes, think of it!) as well the problems of antiscating, presented with the “single” Dual Pivot.
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Re: First impression of the Dual Pivot Kit

Postby suntea » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:11 am

Votan wrote:I have been watched very carefully all your posts in this thread concerning Dual Pivot Issue. It is a fact that unipivots in their microcosm tent to be slightly unstable during cartridge’s tracking, so unipivot tonearms manufacturers try to eliminate this with this or that way.
Having a mechanical engineering degree, as well 30 years experience in setting up TTs, as well living with the VPI V-HR/JMW 12,5 Memorial for some 16 years, I would tempt to make some remarks concerning the geometry, as well the mechanics of this very VPI Dual Pivot effort, that makes me hesitating in join the Dual Pivot camp. Namely:
1. Let’s we call Pivot No 1 the central (factory) pivot point and Pivot No 2 the under discussion additional second pivot point.
2. There is only one (conceivable) plane-level (let’s call it Plane X, or Pivot Plane) which passes through the Pivot No 1 and at the same time is perpendicular to the longitudinal axis of the armwand.
3. Because of the position of the two side azimuth weights (whose common axis normally is as well in the Plane X), Pivot No 2 is forced to be placed just behind the (left hand) side weight, a position that is perforce outside the above conceivable Plane X and behind it! And this creates a lot of issues! Namely:
4. That means that looking from the (right of the TT) side view of the tonearm-cartridge combo at the moment that the cantilever-needle is on the groove of LP and the Pivot 2 is as well touching its plate, we can see the Pivot No 2 been behind the Pivot No 1. Which means that, when we make Pivot No 2 to be in touch to its plate, it creates a torque that affects mainly the VTF (as well VTA and azimuth), not to mention that obstructs the arm in moving freely upwards in its vertical movements!! Yes, I know Pivot No 2 it’s only slightly behind from the Plane X, but all we know that in the microcosm of the arm-cartridge, the slightest changes in VTA, or SRA, or VTF, or azimuth lead in huge sound alterations! Keep that in mind for all the following!
5. First of all, if we want to adjust Pivot No 2 to be exactly just in contact to its plate (no more, no less), this must be done at the moment that the needle-cantilever are already in the groove of LP, under the condition that in the same time we already have fix the correct azimuth, VTA (with the arm parallel to the platter), and VTF!!
What that means? If, before the Dual Pivot upgrade, the procedure of "adjusting the counterweight to a specific VTF (if you were lucky enough, after a million tiny back and forth movements), and adjusting counterweight again to adjust azimuth, which then messes up the VTF...." was a circular path to hell, then what should be this nightmare when the Dual Pivot issue comes into the equation, creating its longitudinal torque at the moment that it touches its plate? Not to mention that from the moment that Pivot No 2 would be just in contact to its plate, the slightest unintentional additional screwing should change uncontrollably the VTF, VTA and Azimuth.
6. But let’s say that some time later this nightmare ends successfully, everything is precisely adjusted with the Pivot No 2 just in touch to its plate and we spin the platter in order to listen LPs. Then the most problematic issue concerning the degraded sound behavior of the cartridge, as well the possibility of its damage is when it should be asked to track in not flat LPs, a not at all rare situation when LPs are not brand new or they are not flat for some other reason!
In such cases cartridge and tonearm should be totally free in moving up and down while playing a record. But even if swinging amplitude is around +/- 0.5 mm high, the Pivot No 2, been already in contact to its plate behind the Pivot No 1, should oppose the need of the arm to move up freely! This is an additional (and more or less unbearable) opposition to the free movement of the arm, because it has always (as all arms in the world) to deal with its moment of inertia (namely the laziness of the arm to move lightning fast due to weights-cartridge and screws, counterweight, arm mass, arm cables-on it and their distance from pivot).
All those mean that the arm could not be able to catch up with LP swing. This creates strain to the cantilever causing instant VTF, VTA, SRA and azimuth changes which lead to sound distortions that are subjectively heard as detonation, as well, in extreme cases (very warped LPs) to damage the cantilever’s suspension.
One final note: I think that most of the above described issues could be minimized or eliminated if VPI could find a way to put the above Pivot No 2 into Plane X, (see above paragraph 2, namely in the conceivable plane-level which passes through the Pivot No 1 and at the same time is perpendicular to the longitudinal axis of the armwand).
Or, even better, if VPI could put a second Pivot No 2, symmetrically to (the above mentioned) first Pivot No 2 , in the place where now is the right side azimuth weight, under the condition that both side pivots should be indispensably into the Plane X, making the tonearm a (Kuzma or Reed like) ..3Point pivot. This could make the set up much easier, as well could minimize (yes, think of it!) as well the problems of antiscating, presented with the “single” Dual Pivot.

Very interesting. Is there a way to actually measure what you state in paragraph 4?
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