First impression of the Dual Pivot Kit

Re: First impression of the Dual Pivot Kit

Postby Jprod » Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:24 pm

leftside wrote:@VinBob

I'm happy to report I have my cart reinstalled and have been listening in the evening all week. Setting the VTF is exactly the same as before - I use a digital scale and rotate the counter weight until I get the desired setting for my cart. The azimuth was a breeze to setup. You just need an appropriate/tiny screwdriver (and for me - a good pair of glasses!) to adjust the second/new pivot.

The anti-skate was a bit of a pain - but I put this down to my inexperience. This is only the third time I've setup a cart. I read many threads on here and watched YouTube videos. I made the incorrect assumption that I'd need less anti-skate, but in the end I actually needed a little more. Reading through threads and videos you will see there are many opinions on setting up the anti-skate. Following this video worked for me (though others - maybe correctly - have seen faults with this method):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIBtZR941Yw

The dual-pivot is the best upgrade I've purchased. Setting up the azimuth/VTF with the single pivot and counterweight was a maddening experience for me. Get the VTF correct, mess it up when you adjust the azimuth. adjust the VTF again, mess up the azimuth, etc.... Combined with the retip from Soundsmith, the easier setup of the cart (due to the dual pivot) and me becoming more experienced at setting up the cart I can honestly say this is the quietest my turntable has ever sounded. I would quite often get some sort of distortion in the right channel - and I wasn't sure if this was due to the record or my setup. Turns out it was my setup (though the retip/serviving from Soundsmith probably also helps).

I'll get a Fozgometer next month as I'm curious to see how "well" I've setup the azimuth compared to what the Fozgometer is telling me. I can't see (hear) how it can be improved, but as we all know in audio, there is always "better"....

Was you anti skate set up hard because of your specific cart or because of the dual pivot ?
VPI Prime with ortofon 2m black, Manley Chinook phono preamp, Wyred4sound STP-SE preamp, parasound halo a21 amp, Ascend acoustics tower speakers with RAAL ribbon tweeters, audio sensibility signature cables
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Re: First impression of the Dual Pivot Kit

Postby leftside » Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:02 pm

To be honest I'd put it down to my inexperience. If I was doing it again, it would take less than 5 mins.
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Re: First impression of the Dual Pivot Kit

Postby tom collins » Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:13 pm

if i can make a suggestion, don't buy a fozgometer buy the feikart software. the fozgometer is a blunt instrument, the software is precise.
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Re: First impression of the Dual Pivot Kit

Postby Stringreen » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:31 pm

TomCollins.......proper azimuth allows the cartridge to produce equal output from both channels. I used the Foz and singers, soloists, etc. are exactly centered between the 2 speakers....also the soundstage is WAY bigger. The Foz worked well for me. Be sure to use a new battery before using. Why anyone with a VPI arm won't even try using the 2nd pivot at that price is perplexing. Cleaner, clearer, more solid lows, silkier highs, huge soundstage, etc.,etc., etc ...just one more thing.....the adjusting screw may be too loose...if so, add a drop of Loktite 222 (pink). If adjustment is needed, the screw will still turn, but a much tighter fit/more effort
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Re: First impression of the Dual Pivot Kit

Postby VinBob » Sun Aug 26, 2018 4:44 pm

leftside wrote:@VinBob

I'm happy to report I have my cart reinstalled and have been listening in the evening all week. Setting the VTF is exactly the same as before - I use a digital scale and rotate the counter weight until I get the desired setting for my cart. The azimuth was a breeze to setup. You just need an appropriate/tiny screwdriver (and for me - a good pair of glasses!) to adjust the second/new pivot.

The anti-skate was a bit of a pain - but I put this down to my inexperience. This is only the third time I've setup a cart. I read many threads on here and watched YouTube videos. I made the incorrect assumption that I'd need less anti-skate, but in the end I actually needed a little more. Reading through threads and videos you will see there are many opinions on setting up the anti-skate. Following this video worked for me (though others - maybe correctly - have seen faults with this method):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIBtZR941Yw

The dual-pivot is the best upgrade I've purchased. Setting up the azimuth/VTF with the single pivot and counterweight was a maddening experience for me. Get the VTF correct, mess it up when you adjust the azimuth. adjust the VTF again, mess up the azimuth, etc.... Combined with the retip from Soundsmith, the easier setup of the cart (due to the dual pivot) and me becoming more experienced at setting up the cart I can honestly say this is the quietest my turntable has ever sounded. I would quite often get some sort of distortion in the right channel - and I wasn't sure if this was due to the record or my setup. Turns out it was my setup (though the retip/serviving from Soundsmith probably also helps).
Edit: Also the ultrasonic cleaning + rinse with a VPI vacuum cleaner ensures your records are as clean as possible so you can focus on your setup. Rainy day here (first in 2 months...) so I'm record cleaning again today.

I'll get a Fozgometer next month as I'm curious to see how "well" I've setup the azimuth compared to what the Fozgometer is telling me. I can't see (hear) how it can be improved, but as we all know in audio, there is always "better"....


Thanks for the feedback and glad to hear all went well with your installation! :)

One question though: Before you started adjusting the dual pivot point, didn't you have to load the pivot point first? If so, I assume this is done by extending out the 'right' side weight so that there is very minimal weight on the pivot point touching the plate correct? Would appreciate a little more detail on that part as I pluck up the courage to do mine in the not too distant future! ;)

I know I have probably said this in the past, but I do wish VPI would put out installation videos on their accessories (dual pivot, manual anti-skate etc.) and general TT maintenance, as it would be a great help to many people, but I appreciate these things take time to put together...

Cheers,
Vin.
VPI Prime | VAS Nova Special 0.4mV | Phoenix Engineering Eagle & Roadrunner | Sutherland 20/20 | Bryston BP-26/MPS-2 & 4B Cubed | Focal 826W Chorus V LE | SVS SB-1000 | Naim DAC-V1 | Rega Apollo-R
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Re: First impression of the Dual Pivot Kit

Postby Stringreen » Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:06 am

The adjustment on the 2nd pivot controls/locks in azimuth. What I did was to adjust for correct azimuth with the adjustment not in play...then after azimuth was proper, I screwed in the adjustment to just touch the skate pad under it....then confirmed azimuth again (used Foz) and confirmed the 2nd pivot slid for the full length of the record....and enjoy its added performance.
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Re: First impression of the Dual Pivot Kit

Postby VinBob » Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:29 am

Stringreen wrote:The adjustment on the 2nd pivot controls/locks in azimuth. What I did was to adjust for correct azimuth with the adjustment not in play...then after azimuth was proper, I screwed in the adjustment to just touch the skate pad under it....then confirmed azimuth again (used Foz) and confirmed the 2nd pivot slid for the full length of the record....and enjoy its added performance.


Thanks Stringreen - so maybe I have been overthinking this but based on your feedback and how simple you made the addition of the Dual Pivot and if I am understanding you correctly, it sounds like once one has their Azimuth setup without the pivot point as I have today, you just simply install the plate, the DP point on the arm and then simply adjust the point so that it is very lightly touching the plate? From what I have read, I was under the impression that one had to perform some additional loading via the side weights to make this right but if I am not mistaken, you didn't have to correct?

Also, what do you do for anti-skate? Do you use the manual device (which is what I use) and if so, did you have to increase A/S to compensate for the dual pivot?

Cheers,
Vin.
VPI Prime | VAS Nova Special 0.4mV | Phoenix Engineering Eagle & Roadrunner | Sutherland 20/20 | Bryston BP-26/MPS-2 & 4B Cubed | Focal 826W Chorus V LE | SVS SB-1000 | Naim DAC-V1 | Rega Apollo-R
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Re: First impression of the Dual Pivot Kit

Postby leftside » Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:06 pm

VinBob wrote:
Stringreen wrote:The adjustment on the 2nd pivot controls/locks in azimuth. What I did was to adjust for correct azimuth with the adjustment not in play...then after azimuth was proper, I screwed in the adjustment to just touch the skate pad under it....then confirmed azimuth again (used Foz) and confirmed the 2nd pivot slid for the full length of the record....and enjoy its added performance.


Thanks Stringreen - so maybe I have been overthinking this but based on your feedback and how simple you made the addition of the Dual Pivot and if I am understanding you correctly, it sounds like once one has their Azimuth setup without the pivot point as I have today, you just simply install the plate, the DP point on the arm and then simply adjust the point so that it is very lightly touching the plate? Vin.

This is what I did. The only difference being I adjusted the screw on the point to (re) set the azimuth. I have the side weights completely screwed in and flush to the tonearm. I also readjusted the counterweight so it was exactly in the middle (I used to turn in slightly to set the azimuth). This is why it makes the azimuth so simple to set. No need to worry about the counterweight or side weights. Just adjust the screw on the point.

I did notice that once I had everything setup correctly, I had to go back and slightly adjust the VTF again and add about 10% more weight. So maybe you'll need to adjust VTF, azimuth and anti-skate a few times before they are optimal, but it's much easier than the maddening adjustment of VTF + azimuth with the single counterweight.
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Re: First impression of the Dual Pivot Kit

Postby VinBob » Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:19 pm

leftside wrote:
VinBob wrote:
Stringreen wrote:The adjustment on the 2nd pivot controls/locks in azimuth. What I did was to adjust for correct azimuth with the adjustment not in play...then after azimuth was proper, I screwed in the adjustment to just touch the skate pad under it....then confirmed azimuth again (used Foz) and confirmed the 2nd pivot slid for the full length of the record....and enjoy its added performance.


Thanks Stringreen - so maybe I have been overthinking this but based on your feedback and how simple you made the addition of the Dual Pivot and if I am understanding you correctly, it sounds like once one has their Azimuth setup without the pivot point as I have today, you just simply install the plate, the DP point on the arm and then simply adjust the point so that it is very lightly touching the plate? Vin.

This is what I did. The only difference being I adjusted the screw on the point to (re) set the azimuth. I have the side weights completely screwed in and flush to the tonearm. I also readjusted the counterweight so it was exactly in the middle (I used to turn in slightly to set the azimuth). This is why it makes the azimuth so simple to set. No need to worry about the counterweight or side weights. Just adjust the screw on the point.

I did notice that once I had everything setup correctly, I had to go back and slightly adjust the VTF again and add about 10% more weight. So maybe you'll need to adjust VTF, azimuth and anti-skate a few times before they are optimal, but it's much easier than the maddening adjustment of VTF + azimuth with the single counterweight.


Sorry, when you say difference in adjusting the screw on the point to reset azimuth, are you referring to the dual pivot point screw and what do you mean by resetting the azimuth? Just want to make sure I am not misinterpreting something and thanks for your patience!

Truly appreciate the feedback on this everyone and I think I am going to give this a shot over the weekend, as its not as difficult as I originally thought. As for anti-skating, I'll simply use my test LP but my guess, is that I may have to add another rubber ring as I am currently using two at the very low point, so I have fairly minimal anti-skating going on and things sound great. I am truly amazed that it is going to sound even better by adding the dual pivot point, which I wouldn't think would be possible given how good things sound already... :)

Cheers,
Vin.
VPI Prime | VAS Nova Special 0.4mV | Phoenix Engineering Eagle & Roadrunner | Sutherland 20/20 | Bryston BP-26/MPS-2 & 4B Cubed | Focal 826W Chorus V LE | SVS SB-1000 | Naim DAC-V1 | Rega Apollo-R
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Re: First impression of the Dual Pivot Kit

Postby Stringreen » Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:21 pm

I had the slide plate and 2nd pivot in position ...and then adjusted for azimuth. My thinking was that the weight of the slide plate could affect the arm. So.....everything is in position and then I screwed the 2nd pivot screw to just touch the plate.....and then rechecked the azimuth. Actually it takes more words than effort to adjust the gizmo.
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