VPI 12" 3DR confirmed NO Carbon Fiber in design

Re: VPI 12" 3DR confirmed NO Carbon Fiber in design

Postby Johnny » Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:56 am

Packgrog wrote:The graph seems to show that the wrap doesn't really do anything of significance other than look pretty. It'd be interesting to see how a similar wrap might effect a metal arm tube, though...


What the graph does show is that 12-3D carbon fiber look arm performs slightly less than a glossy 12-3D arm. We have no clue as to how either of these arms perform against the standard 12-3D arm which has the been the staple VPI 12-3D arm for many years and was the arm in which the "reference" was compared to.
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Re: VPI 12" 3DR confirmed NO Carbon Fiber in design

Postby Marc » Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:11 pm

Hi guys I hope I can help with the confusion.

The lower the result, the better it is with resonance and isolation. You would also want to look at the peak measurement between the two. Therefore, the Gloss Finish (which Mat mentioned in the video) would be out performing the Wrap finish.


This graph shows the Wrap vs. Standard. If you notice, the Standard is more sensitive to the noise when compared to the wrapped tonearm.
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Re: VPI 12" 3DR confirmed NO Carbon Fiber in design

Postby Brf » Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:02 pm

Thanks Marc for the additional information and clarification.

Is it possible to post individual resonance plots for the following tonearms?

1) Standard 12-3D
2) Reference Carbon Look 12-3DR
3) Reference Gloss Black 12-3DR

When the graphs are transposed over one another, individual traces in the 50hz, 120hz and the 250hz range are difficult to discern. I am also very interested in the 480hz range in which the Reference arms appear to excel.
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Re: VPI 12" 3DR confirmed NO Carbon Fiber in design

Postby Marc » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:02 pm

Here are the individual graphs.
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JMW-12-Wrap.jpg
JMW-12-Wrap.jpg (225.56 KiB) Viewed 299 times
JMW-12-Standard.jpg
JMW-12-Standard.jpg (216.9 KiB) Viewed 299 times
JMW-12-Gloss.jpg
JMW-12-Gloss.jpg (222.58 KiB) Viewed 299 times
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Re: VPI 12" 3DR confirmed NO Carbon Fiber in design

Postby Packgrog » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:04 pm

Looks like gloss finish is king here. Nice!
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Re: VPI 12" 3DR confirmed NO Carbon Fiber in design

Postby Letsmakeadeal » Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:16 pm

I am confused? Isn't the "Wrap or carbon look" arm the one with the lowest (below -45db)=best and therefore best results of the three?
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Re: VPI 12" 3DR confirmed NO Carbon Fiber in design

Postby Johnny » Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:41 pm

Letsmakeadeal wrote:I am confused? Isn't the "Wrap or carbon look" arm the one with the lowest (below -45db)=best and therefore best results of the three?

My understanding is lower the better, but your conclusion is wrong based on the published graphs. The carbon comes in at a close 2nd the the standard. The glossy is the best.
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Re: VPI 12" 3DR confirmed NO Carbon Fiber in design

Postby Letsmakeadeal » Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:07 pm

Marc wrote:Here are the individual graphs.


Marc or BRF - Will you please explain what we are looking at here. I would think a perfect result would be a blank graph - i.e. no excitation of resonance. If correct, isn't the smallest reading the best reading? -50db is smaller/lower and better than -34db, No?

Maybe I am upside down here, but if these graphs show what I think they show, the Carbon Finish arm wins...If this is incorrect, please explain what these graphs are depicting....

If the Carbon Finish arm has the worst results of the three then we've got another Thread to start.....
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Re: VPI 12" 3DR confirmed NO Carbon Fiber in design

Postby cbl117 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:53 am

This is marketing at its finest. I see no real improvement...only variation in noise floor.
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Re: VPI 12" 3DR confirmed NO Carbon Fiber in design

Postby thegage » Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:03 am

cbl117 wrote:This is marketing at its finest. I see no real improvement...only variation in noise floor.

Let's see, with the cartridges likely to be used with those arms the signal generated is about 0.3 mV, which is then amplified what, 100 times? 1000 times? (math is not my strong suit) If I'm reading those graphs right, theoretically the noise floor of those arms can be less than 40dB at some points, which could be amplified, which means that suppressing noise is significant. Doesn't seem like marketing to me.

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