Update On 3rd Version of ADS?

Re: Update On 3rd Version of ADS?

Postby MOON » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:49 pm

Mat,

It's been 5 months since you last posted here. Are you any closer to launching the ADS signature version?
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Re: Update On 3rd Version of ADS?

Postby 10ovr » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:37 am

MOON wrote:Mat,

It's been 5 months since you last posted here. Are you any closer to launching the ADS signature version?

So MOON you do know that 5 months is only 5 days in VPI time :lol: ,,Would be nice to know if they are still building one ,,,
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Re: Update On 3rd Version of ADS?

Postby Letsmakeadeal » Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:21 am

I seriously doubt it will ever happen.
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Re: Update On 3rd Version of ADS?

Postby Peer Gynt » Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:38 am

It would be nice to hear the status of this project.

In general, perfect speed control requires closed loop tachometer feedback.

In the Linn product line, at the top level (the Radikal), a marker is installed on the bottom of the platter and it is monitored by an optical sensor. A computer compares the measured signal to a high precision clock, and adjusts the DC motor to correct or maintain 33.333 rpm. I have one. It is as close to perfect speed as I’ve ever seen. The upgrade from the stock AC motor is around $5k in the US. Does it matter? I dunno. The stock table sounds good too.

There is an aftermarket upgrade from Edmund in Hong Kong. For less than $1000, he will sell you a kit to self install. The kit includes a sticker with 16 markers that fits under the platter. Also included is an optical sensor to read the markers. The computer uses a standard post WWII 2nd order closed loop feedback control algorithm to continually adjust the motor speed based on the sensor signal. I’ve got a deck set up with one of these too. Linn say it’s not as good. It measures imperceptibly less good than the Radikal ( you can see it in the second decimal place). My ears tell me it’s quite good, especially for its price point.

In the VPI line, it looks like we’ve relied on the AC synchronous motor with precise pulleys and belts. Sometimes we add a PLC, or SDS, or ADS, but none of these use feedback.

I don’t think you’re ever going get perfect measurements from a system with out feedback. But obviously the tables sound great. There is a school of thought that views feedback as a sound detractor, rather than an enhanced.

FWIW, Rega tables are notorious for running 33.4+ rpm, and people rave about them. So being exactly on 33.333 is nice for test equipment, but if you want to listen to music rather than measure, it might be better to put away the test gear and grab some records.

When I play my HW19 Mk3 or Classic 3SE against either of my LP12s, the VPIs deliver the goods.
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Re: Update On 3rd Version of ADS?

Postby Letsmakeadeal » Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:22 pm

Peer Gynt wrote:It would be nice to hear the status of this project.

In general, perfect speed control requires closed loop tachometer feedback.

In the Linn product line, at the top level (the Radikal), a marker is installed on the bottom of the platter and it is monitored by an optical sensor. A computer compares the measured signal to a high precision clock, and adjusts the DC motor to correct or maintain 33.333 rpm. I have one. It is as close to perfect speed as I’ve ever seen. The upgrade from the stock AC motor is around $5k in the US. Does it matter? I dunno. The stock table sounds good too.

There is an aftermarket upgrade from Edmund in Hong Kong. For less than $1000, he will sell you a kit to self install. The kit includes a sticker with 16 markers that fits under the platter. Also included is an optical sensor to read the markers. The computer uses a standard post WWII 2nd order closed loop feedback control algorithm to continually adjust the motor speed based on the sensor signal. I’ve got a deck set up with one of these too. Linn say it’s not as good. It measures imperceptibly less good than the Radikal ( you can see it in the second decimal place). My ears tell me it’s quite good, especially for its price point.

In the VPI line, it looks like we’ve relied on the AC synchronous motor with precise pulleys and belts. Sometimes we add a PLC, or SDS, or ADS, but none of these use feedback.

I don’t think you’re ever going get perfect measurements from a system with out feedback. But obviously the tables sound great. There is a school of thought that views feedback as a sound detractor, rather than an enhanced.

FWIW, Rega tables are notorious for running 33.4+ rpm, and people rave about them. So being exactly on 33.333 is nice for test equipment, but if you want to listen to music rather than measure, it might be better to put away the test gear and grab some records.

When I play my HW19 Mk3 or Classic 3SE against either of my LP12s, the VPIs deliver the goods.



If you buy into Harry's/ VPI's analog drive philosophy that guided the development of the ADS, you accept that other factors in driving the turntable's motor are more important than absolute continuous platter speed. Count me among those agreeing with Harry on this one.
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Re: Update On 3rd Version of ADS?

Postby Mat » Tue May 01, 2018 5:35 am

Actually we have a gorgeous 3D rendering of the chassis as well with a lot of other fantastic steps forward... but I'm not posting anything until I'm holding a near finished prototype in my hands :P
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Re: Update On 3rd Version of ADS?

Postby Letsmakeadeal » Tue May 01, 2018 12:11 pm

Mat wrote:Actually we have a gorgeous 3D rendering of the chassis as well with a lot of other fantastic steps forward... but I'm not posting anything until I'm holding a near finished prototype in my hands :P


Please don't post anything more until the units are in dealer's inventory and ready to sell. I am happy to run a BETA test when the time is right for you if you want potential buyer input :D
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Re: Update On 3rd Version of ADS?

Postby MOON » Tue May 01, 2018 8:55 pm

Mat,
One last question. Will you be able to give an option of a silver face plate instead of just black ??

Glad to hear you are making progress.
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Re: Update On 3rd Version of ADS?

Postby Orchids1 » Wed May 02, 2018 8:27 am

Peer Gynt, The system you described for maintaining real-time rotational speed accuracy is essentially what was used in the Phoenix products. They were also accurate to the third decimal point. My platter often maintains 33.333 rpm for extended periods using the Phoenix Eagle and tach. Rich
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Re: Update On 3rd Version of ADS?

Postby Peer Gynt » Wed May 02, 2018 12:31 pm

Orchids1 wrote:Peer Gynt, The system you described for maintaining real-time rotational speed accuracy is essentially what was used in the Phoenix products. They were also accurate to the third decimal point. My platter often maintains 33.333 rpm for extended periods using the Phoenix Eagle and tach. Rich


I’ve been churning my systems lately. I think that’s what retired guys do best.

In the system in my outbuilding office, I’ve had an HW19 Mk3 set up, with an Ittok LVII tonearm, an Ortofon MC3 Turbo, and a PLC with dial on front (gen 2 plc).

Yesterday I took a mid level LP12 out there to compare.

The HW19 is running into the 47kOhm PV11 phono section.

I rebuilt the LP12 last year with new springs, new grommets, Cirkus bearing, Kore subchassis, and Edmund’s Maxxon DC motor and Mober controller. The arm is an Ittok LVII, the cartridge is a Linn Krystal, and the phono section is the Linn Uphorik specifically adjusted per Linn for the Krystal.

Both decks are running with Linn black cables (Mogami). The VPI interfaces via a Cardas phono to RCA box.

The amp is a Krell KSA150. The speakers are Revel F208s.

I am surprised to say that the untweaked HW19 and cheap cartridge are putting a serious whooping on the LP12.
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